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Post Brexit- impact on travelling to Europe


Post Brexit- impact on travelling to Europe

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BenS
BenS
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Well the news this morning is looking a little more reassuring. A lot of MPs determined to legally block no deal from happening, and otherwise perhaps a delay in leaving. Or even if we do leave on 29 March but with a deal, hopefully the SISII alerts would continue roughly as now, with no need for Interpol to get involved.
AB2014
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BenS - 26 Feb 19 10:05 AM
Well the news this morning is looking a little more reassuring. A lot of MPs determined to legally block no deal from happening, and otherwise perhaps a delay in leaving. Or even if we do leave on 29 March but with a deal, hopefully the SISII alerts would continue roughly as now, with no need for Interpol to get involved.

The devil will be in the detail. If the government continues to insist it won't accept the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, then access to SISII won't happen and it will still be via Interpol, whatever the deal is. Hopefully, the combination of the police, other law enforcement agencies and the Home Secretary will lead to us having access to SISII, which would be best for everyone.

=========================================================================================================

If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)

JGUK68
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I am not sure (I would like to share experiences) that a SIS alert is automatically sent upon notifying a foreign travel. On similar forum someone said that it depends that the alert is sent depending on the sentence (i.e. custodial/suspended), its length, previous convictions etc.

On a website (College of Policing) I have found the following : ".....Decisions to use Interpol notices (and SIS II alerts) are taken following national guidance and on a case by case basis according to risk...."  By reading that it seems that even SIS alerts are issued on a case by case basis. 

My personal experience is limited. I traveled to Holland and Italy but my passport was not scanned and once to Ireland where my passport was scanned but no questions were asked.
I would like to know your opinion and/or personal experiences.
AB2014
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JGUK68 - 4 Mar 19 1:43 PM
I am not sure (I would like to share experiences) that a SIS alert is automatically sent upon notifying a foreign travel. On similar forum someone said that it depends that the alert is sent depending on the sentence (i.e. custodial/suspended), its length, previous convictions etc.

On a website (College of Policing) I have found the following : ".....Decisions to use Interpol notices (and SIS II alerts) are taken following national guidance and on a case by case basis according to risk...."  By reading that it seems that even SIS alerts are issued on a case by case basis. 

My personal experience is limited. I traveled to Holland and Italy but my passport was not scanned and once to Ireland where my passport was scanned but no questions were asked.
I would like to know your opinion and/or personal experiences.

Earlier on this thread, someone posted that SIS II alerts are issued automatically as a matter of procedure, as an Article 36(2) alert. When I checked back through the document references, I found that the Article 36(2) alert is on the same basis as the Interpol Green Notice, which is that the person who is the subject of the notice is either involved in crime or travelling with the intention of committing crimes. Having said that, some forces seem to do that, while others issue notices for all travel notifications. According to EC information here, these alerts are for discreet or specific checks. I have heard of one check at French border control at St.Pancras being done at gunpoint, before the officer read the full text of the alert. Something to do with the alert codes suggesting the poor guy was missing and wanted, apparently.

=========================================================================================================

If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)

BenS
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AB2014 - 5 Mar 19 9:07 AM
JGUK68 - 4 Mar 19 1:43 PM
I am not sure (I would like to share experiences) that a SIS alert is automatically sent upon notifying a foreign travel. On similar forum someone said that it depends that the alert is sent depending on the sentence (i.e. custodial/suspended), its length, previous convictions etc.

On a website (College of Policing) I have found the following : ".....Decisions to use Interpol notices (and SIS II alerts) are taken following national guidance and on a case by case basis according to risk...."  By reading that it seems that even SIS alerts are issued on a case by case basis. 

My personal experience is limited. I traveled to Holland and Italy but my passport was not scanned and once to Ireland where my passport was scanned but no questions were asked.
I would like to know your opinion and/or personal experiences.

Earlier on this thread, someone posted that SIS II alerts are issued automatically as a matter of procedure, as an Article 36(2) alert. When I checked back through the document references, I found that the Article 36(2) alert is on the same basis as the Interpol Green Notice, which is that the person who is the subject of the notice is either involved in crime or travelling with the intention of committing crimes. Having said that, some forces seem to do that, while others issue notices for all travel notifications. According to EC information here, these alerts are for discreet or specific checks. I have heard of one check at French border control at St.Pancras being done at gunpoint, before the officer read the full text of the alert. Something to do with the alert codes suggesting the poor guy was missing and wanted, apparently.

AB2014, while Article 36(2) restricts the issuance of a SISII alert to people involved in crime/suspected of intending to commit crime, the UK's College of Policing website goes beyond this and states that a SISII alert is issued as standard for all RSOs notifying foreign travel, i.e. regardless of risk, background, etc. So basically the UK police assume that all RSOs are actively involved in crime and intend to commit further crime, or just want to make our life more difficult for laughs.

JGUK68: when you mention SISII alerts and "notifying foreign travel", this is only for countries using the SISII system, i.e. countries in the Schengen Area plus the UK and a few eastern European EU countries not in Schengen. As per my paragraph above, and posts by several other users here, no risk assessment is carried out when notifying travel to Europe - an alert is automatically issued for all RSOs who notify foreign travel. As we (currently) have unconditional freedom of movement in the EU + EEA + Switzerland, this alert is merely a formality and is not an entry ban to these countries - it will flash up on their screen, they may ask a few questions and then they will let us through.

As for travel beyond Europe, there is no SISII alert (as non-European countries don't have access to it), but instead an Interpol green notice may be issued, but this is done at the discretion of your PPU and based on a risk assessment. Personally I've been outside Europe while notifying and have had no issue at all at the border, so my local police must not have issued a green notice on me. No point asking your PPU if they are going to issue a green notice for you - they won't give you a direct answer. Only way is to find out when you get there.

As an aside, I find the SISII interrogation depends on the size of the airport. I recently flew to a tiny airport in Rennes in France, and the passport control people were staring at their screen in apparent confusion, and didn't seem to know what to do with me. Eventually they looked at my passport, spent a couple of minutes typing something and then let me through with no questions. A similar thing happened when I went to Treviso airport in Italy, a very small airport near Venice, used by the low-cost carriers who don't want to use the much larger Venice Marco Polo International. On the other hand, when I have flown into Frankfurt, CDG and Geneva, they seem to know exactly what they're dealing with - they either ask me some very quick routine questions about where I've come from, or they just let me straight through after a 5-second check. I am guessing the smaller airports are not used to seeing many travellers, so even fewer with a SISII alert, while the big airports see it on a daily basis.
Edited
5 Years Ago by BenS
AB2014
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BenS - 5 Mar 19 11:24 AM
AB2014 - 5 Mar 19 9:07 AM
JGUK68 - 4 Mar 19 1:43 PM
I am not sure (I would like to share experiences) that a SIS alert is automatically sent upon notifying a foreign travel. On similar forum someone said that it depends that the alert is sent depending on the sentence (i.e. custodial/suspended), its length, previous convictions etc.

On a website (College of Policing) I have found the following : ".....Decisions to use Interpol notices (and SIS II alerts) are taken following national guidance and on a case by case basis according to risk...."  By reading that it seems that even SIS alerts are issued on a case by case basis. 

My personal experience is limited. I traveled to Holland and Italy but my passport was not scanned and once to Ireland where my passport was scanned but no questions were asked.
I would like to know your opinion and/or personal experiences.

Earlier on this thread, someone posted that SIS II alerts are issued automatically as a matter of procedure, as an Article 36(2) alert. When I checked back through the document references, I found that the Article 36(2) alert is on the same basis as the Interpol Green Notice, which is that the person who is the subject of the notice is either involved in crime or travelling with the intention of committing crimes. Having said that, some forces seem to do that, while others issue notices for all travel notifications. According to EC information here, these alerts are for discreet or specific checks. I have heard of one check at French border control at St.Pancras being done at gunpoint, before the officer read the full text of the alert. Something to do with the alert codes suggesting the poor guy was missing and wanted, apparently.

AB2014, while Article 36(2) restricts the issuance of a SISII alert to people involved in crime/suspected of intending to commit crime, the UK's College of Policing website goes beyond this and states that a SISII alert is issued as standard for all RSOs notifying foreign travel, i.e. regardless of risk, background, etc. So basically the UK police assume that all RSOs are actively involved in crime and intend to commit further crime, or just want to make our life more difficult for laughs.

JGUK68: when you mention SISII alerts and "notifying foreign travel", this is only for countries using the SISII system, i.e. countries in the Schengen Area plus the UK and a few eastern European EU countries not in Schengen. As per my paragraph above, and posts by several other users here, no risk assessment is carried out when notifying travel to Europe - an alert is automatically issued for all RSOs who notify foreign travel. As we (currently) have unconditional freedom of movement in the EU + EEA + Switzerland, this alert is merely a formality and is not an entry ban to these countries - it will flash up on their screen, they may ask a few questions and then they will let us through.

As for travel beyond Europe, there is no SISII alert (as non-European countries don't have access to it), but instead an Interpol green notice may be issued, but this is done at the discretion of your PPU and based on a risk assessment. Personally I've been outside Europe while notifying and have had no issue at all at the border, so my local police must not have issued a green notice on me. No point asking your PPU if they are going to issue a green notice for you - they won't give you a direct answer. Only way is to find out when you get there.

As an aside, I find the SISII interrogation depends on the size of the airport. I recently flew to a tiny airport in Rennes in France, and the passport control people were staring at their screen in apparent confusion, and didn't seem to know what to do with me. Eventually they looked at my passport, spent a couple of minutes typing something and then let me through with no questions. A similar thing happened when I went to Treviso airport in Italy, a very small airport near Venice, used by the low-cost carriers who don't want to use the must larger Venice Marco Polo International. On the other hand, when I have flown into Frankfurt, CDG and Geneva, they seem to know exactly what they're dealing with - they either ask me some very quick routine questions about where I've come from, or they just let me straight through after a 5-second check. I am guessing the smaller airports are not used to seeing many travellers, so even fewer with a SISII alert, while the big airports see it on a daily basis.

They justify the SIS II advice as merely providing the information for other countries to make their own decisions (a bit like the government/DBS and employers). You know, take back control of their borders, etc. etc. As for Interpol green notices, you can ask Interpol what information they hold on you. They even provide an application form.

=========================================================================================================

If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)

BenS
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AB2014 - 5 Mar 19 1:24 PM

They justify the SIS II advice as merely providing the information for other countries to make their own decisions (a bit like the government/DBS and employers). You know, take back control of their borders, etc. etc. As for Interpol green notices, you can ask Interpol what information they hold on you. They even provide an application form.

I'm guessing they reserve the right not to reveal everything they have on you, for "security" reasons?
AB2014
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BenS - 5 Mar 19 1:36 PM
AB2014 - 5 Mar 19 1:24 PM

They justify the SIS II advice as merely providing the information for other countries to make their own decisions (a bit like the government/DBS and employers). You know, take back control of their borders, etc. etc. As for Interpol green notices, you can ask Interpol what information they hold on you. They even provide an application form.

I'm guessing they reserve the right not to reveal everything they have on you, for "security" reasons?

Well, the prevention and detection of crime are standard exemptions in data protection law. Even so, the green notice itself is there to prevent crime, and telling you it exists won't change its ability to do that. Of course, someone could then decide to travel without notifying, but that would be picked up on the way out and on the way back, so the police would know what had been done and probably wouldn't be reluctant to prosecute. If you were going out with the intention of not coming back, you'd have a very short list of destination countries that are beyond the reach of extradition to the UK.

=========================================================================================================

If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)

Yankee
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I'd echo BenS comments.

How easy/painful the experience is at an EU border usually depends whether the immigration official has seen a section 36(2) alert before. If they have, they know its meant to be a discreet check so they follow any instructions on their screen - check destination on boarding pass or ask where travelling from, check if travelling alone or with people..

When they are not familiar with the process, there is usually a lengthy delay while they scroll through pages of instructions and spent what seems like an eternity checking every page of your passport.

In my experience (I travel extensively within the EU and outside the EU and have to notify), there is no consistency at all between countries and airports. I even find the experience can differ significantly at the same airport.

One thing I have noticed is that 1-2 years ago, it seemed to take longer for them to complete their less than discreet checks when I was entering the country and reasonably quick when getting a flight back to the UK.

More recently it has been the other way around. I suspect this might have something to do with the heightened terrorist threat levels previously where they were being a lot more thorough. Although why they would now take longer when you're leaving their country is beyond me..
AB2014
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Another update on travel to the EU after Brexit. It depends on the UK doing the same for EU citizens, but I think they've already said they'll do it, so we just need to wait for them to do it, if they haven't done it already. Until ETIAS starts, it looks like no disclosure, just the €7 fee.

=========================================================================================================

If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)

GO


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