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Ireland: An SOs secret weapon?


Ireland: An SOs secret weapon?

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Harmless
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Does anyone know any good uses for Ireland?

I remember when I was in prison, a lot of SOs were saying they were planning to tell the cops they'd moved to Ireland (and then still live in England), so they wouldn't be bothered, and if evidence came to light that they were still living in England (e.g ATM activity), they'd put it down to an excursion to England lasting fewer than 3 days.

I wonder how they got on!

That's all illegal. But still, there is a huge swathe of our English-speaking archipelago where you're immune to the sex register, so why don't more people go there, or find ways to take advantage of it?

This thought came to me when I was on holiday in Germany for the first time since my conviction, fully aware I could go where I pleased and do what I pleased, but that restrictions would kick in again when I got back home. Then I realised I have my own little "Germany" right on my doorstep.

Isn't there a mismatch between the police's automatic unwillingness to (for example) let a child rapist live with a child in Britain, and their perfect willingness to let them go abroad and endanger foreign children? A hot potato ethic (rather than a child protection ethic) is revealed in policies like this. 

Like consolidating your debts into one monthly payment, I'm thinking I'd rather just trade my sex register punishment for a normal life in Ireland, somewhere near the border.

Best of both worlds.

Ireland is also convenient when experimenting with travel to the US, as the US customs there are on Irish soil so no dealing with the infamous American border agencies.

And there's a lot of will in the Brexit process to keep the border intangible.


Edited
7 Months Ago by Harmless
Square
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Harmless - 13 Oct 18 5:30 PM
Does anyone know any good uses for Ireland?

I remember when I was in prison, a lot of SOs were saying they were planning to tell the cops they'd moved to Ireland (and then still live in England), so they wouldn't be bothered, and if evidence came to light that they were still living in England (e.g ATM activity), they'd put it down to an excursion to England lasting fewer than 3 days.

I wonder how they got on!

That's all illegal. But still, there is a huge swathe of our English-speaking archipelago where you're immune to the sex register, so why don't more people go there, or find ways to take advantage of it?

This thought came to me when I was on holiday in Germany for the first time since my conviction, fully aware I could go where I pleased and do what I pleased, but that restrictions would kick in again when I got back home. Then I realised I have my own little "Germany" right on my doorstep.

Isn't there a mismatch between the police's automatic unwillingness to (for example) let a child rapist live with a child in Britain, and their perfect willingness to let them go abroad and endanger foreign children? A hot potato ethic (rather than a child protection ethic) is revealed in policies like this. 

Like consolidating your debts into one monthly payment, I'm thinking I'd rather just trade my sex register punishment for a normal life in Ireland, somewhere near the border.

Best of both worlds.

Ireland is also convenient when experimenting with travel to the US, as the US customs there are on Irish soil so no dealing with the infamous American border agencies.

And there's a lot of will in the Brexit process to keep the border intangible.


I find this post a little (OK, a lot) concerning. I don't understand the thinking behind it, and to me it sounds like it is in the best case suggesting a way the circumvent justice or the legal process.
If you are on the SOR, you are on it for a reason. Your belief that it is either just or no is another matter. If you move to another country to avoid your SOR obligation and I were your PPO I would likely assess your likelihood of re offending to sky-rocket.
Most decisions made with regards to the SOR are risk based. And as much as you would like to believe 'justice' stops at the border, it doesn't. If I was a PPO or MAPA official and was aware of what you were doing I would be calling the Irish police and tell them my concerns. You would then, no doubt, be receiving visits from the Irish police.

I don't know what you have done to merit being on the SOR (and neither do I want to), or the length of your notification period, however, I would strongly suggest minimising the perceived risk.
1. Do everything you should do with regards to your legal obligations
2. Attend meetings as required
3. Attend group work
4. Don't be isolated/ a loner
5. Try to rebuild family links/ friendships
6. If you are sexually attracted to children - visit your doctor and discuss options to minimise the urges (ie. chemical 'castration')
7. Never view yourself as the victim
8. Get a job
9. Develop a health relationship

If you can prove that you are not a risk UK police will become less interest in you and there is more chance that and orders against you may get discharged.

Talking about running from your SOR requirement sounds really, really bad to me.
Thorswrath
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I echo what Square says. It's a case of you have made your bed and you have to lie in it. Irrespective of your own percieved risk you pose or whether you think the system is fair or balanced is irrelevant since in general life isn't fair and we have to make the best out of the cards we are dealt.

I would like nothing more than to no longer have to register or to be no longer percieved as a 'risk' to others. I know in my heart I would never want to bring harm to anyone, if anything i'm more of a risk to myself but if you take an attitude of 'i don't deserve this' 'poor old me' etc then i can guarantee you will find more obstacles in your way.

It is better to accept the harm you have caused due to your offending and work on becoming a better human being than try to run away from the problem. Some issues are more difficult to work on than others, isolation being a problem due to the stigma associated with the offence (depending on the severity as well) and the fact many people would not want to be associated with such an individual of that category. Although there are things that can be done, if you have held on to some friends or at least one family member then you are in a much better place than a total loner ie: some element of a support network. If you have work, a purpose and a vision of how you want to overcome the problems you face then that's also good, things like mental health issues for example, recognising that there might be things you need to work on and being prepared to get the help.

There's an old saying 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' and i think that applies with what you are intending. I can think of far worse punishments such as those dished out by vigilante groups etc so having to be on a list and having a visit by a PPU officer once or twice a year whilst it might be 'inconvenient' it's small fry compared to some other ways different countries deal with this kind of offence.



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Thorswrath - 14 Oct 18 5:38 PM
I echo what Square says. It's a case of you have made your bed and you have to lie in it. Irrespective of your own percieved risk you pose or whether you think the system is fair or balanced is irrelevant since in general life isn't fair and we have to make the best out of the cards we are dealt.

I would like nothing more than to no longer have to register or to be no longer percieved as a 'risk' to others. I know in my heart I would never want to bring harm to anyone, if anything i'm more of a risk to myself but if you take an attitude of 'i don't deserve this' 'poor old me' etc then i can guarantee you will find more obstacles in your way.

It is better to accept the harm you have caused due to your offending and work on becoming a better human being than try to run away from the problem. Some issues are more difficult to work on than others, isolation being a problem due to the stigma associated with the offence (depending on the severity as well) and the fact many people would not want to be associated with such an individual of that category. Although there are things that can be done, if you have held on to some friends or at least one family member then you are in a much better place than a total loner ie: some element of a support network. If you have work, a purpose and a vision of how you want to overcome the problems you face then that's also good, things like mental health issues for example, recognising that there might be things you need to work on and being prepared to get the help.

There's an old saying 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' and i think that applies with what you are intending. I can think of far worse punishments such as those dished out by vigilante groups etc so having to be on a list and having a visit by a PPU officer once or twice a year whilst it might be 'inconvenient' it's small fry compared to some other ways different countries deal with this kind of offence.



I agree a very disconcerting post.  You need to follow the legal process and then escape or spend the rest of your life being chased or at least thinking you might be.  Just do what you need to and wait until your conviction is spent !

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The logic is flawed anyway.

The UK signed a memorandum of understanding with Ireland whereby the Garda are notified of any SO travelling  to Ireland (of course, this assumes you have notified your PPU in the UK before travelling/moving).

If you move to Ireland, you have to register with the Garda and comply with the Irish notification regulations (as does an Irish citizen moving to the UK)
hurrdedurr
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I must say that this post concerns me too.

The bottom line, everyone who is on the SOR has been through a justice procedure and an attempt to run will cause your PPO to almost certainly raise your risk levels and then actually minimise the freedom that you so desperately seek.

A desire to 'start again' once the notification requirements as well can be understood, especially if your details were published in the local news and life has become difficult.  But you can start again in the UK.  My husband is still under notifications and with a lot of help from external agencies and support workers he is holding down a job, rebuilding our relationship, developing friendships again and, most importantly, accepting of the offence that was committed and committed to never becoming involved in any kind of activity that would lead him to get into any kind of trouble with the law.  Even down to paying for 5p carrier bags :-) 

Lucy Faithful Foundation were instrumental in support for both he and myself if you are finding yourself feeling like you may reoffend.  

If it is a case of wanting to 'start again', think about what moving away would give you versus staying put.  Often running away doesn't solve things, merely kicks the can down the road.  Remove the SO from the equation and I would still offer that same advice.  It's actually no different to the advice I would offer to an underage runaway too.  Work with people to change the things that you hate, and learn the art of acceptance.  It sucks, but I promise it will change your outlook.  

Wishing you all the best and whilst I am concerned about your post I do wonder if maybe it wasn't quite taken in the light that was intended - equally, if it was in the light that it has been perceived, then please know that in the long term your life can return.  It'll never be the same, but you can build a new life for yourself.

Good luck, and stay on the right side of the law.  I'm sure no one wants to go through the hell of arrest, bail, trial ever again, whether it was us as family members or you as the people with the convictions.    



Zack
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hurrdedurr - 7 Nov 18 7:59 PM
I must say that this post concerns me too.

The bottom line, everyone who is on the SOR has been through a justice procedure and an attempt to run will cause your PPO to almost certainly raise your risk levels and then actually minimise the freedom that you so desperately seek.

A desire to 'start again' once the notification requirements as well can be understood, especially if your details were published in the local news and life has become difficult.  But you can start again in the UK.  My husband is still under notifications and with a lot of help from external agencies and support workers he is holding down a job, rebuilding our relationship, developing friendships again and, most importantly, accepting of the offence that was committed and committed to never becoming involved in any kind of activity that would lead him to get into any kind of trouble with the law.  Even down to paying for 5p carrier bags :-) 

Lucy Faithful Foundation were instrumental in support for both he and myself if you are finding yourself feeling like you may reoffend.  

If it is a case of wanting to 'start again', think about what moving away would give you versus staying put.  Often running away doesn't solve things, merely kicks the can down the road.  Remove the SO from the equation and I would still offer that same advice.  It's actually no different to the advice I would offer to an underage runaway too.  Work with people to change the things that you hate, and learn the art of acceptance.  It sucks, but I promise it will change your outlook.  

Wishing you all the best and whilst I am concerned about your post I do wonder if maybe it wasn't quite taken in the light that was intended - equally, if it was in the light that it has been perceived, then please know that in the long term your life can return.  It'll never be the same, but you can build a new life for yourself.

Good luck, and stay on the right side of the law.  I'm sure no one wants to go through the hell of arrest, bail, trial ever again, whether it was us as family members or you as the people with the convictions.    



To be fair I do think the SOR is overused, and seems to automatically applied according to the offense and the length of offense, rather than based on the individual needs. There was a ruling some time ago about SHPOs. It found that it must be proportionate and not oppressive and it must tailor the facts of the offences to which it attaches. It does make me think if this should be extended to SOR too. Someone convicted of a downloading offence shouldn't really need to have to notify about travel etc, as this wasn't relevant to the original offence. I as the partner of someone on the SOR, shoudln't have my car registration inputted into their systems, or my details fed into whatever database they use when I travel with him overseas.

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Zack - 10 Nov 18 1:25 PM
hurrdedurr - 7 Nov 18 7:59 PM
I must say that this post concerns me too.

The bottom line, everyone who is on the SOR has been through a justice procedure and an attempt to run will cause your PPO to almost certainly raise your risk levels and then actually minimise the freedom that you so desperately seek.

A desire to 'start again' once the notification requirements as well can be understood, especially if your details were published in the local news and life has become difficult.  But you can start again in the UK.  My husband is still under notifications and with a lot of help from external agencies and support workers he is holding down a job, rebuilding our relationship, developing friendships again and, most importantly, accepting of the offence that was committed and committed to never becoming involved in any kind of activity that would lead him to get into any kind of trouble with the law.  Even down to paying for 5p carrier bags :-) 

Lucy Faithful Foundation were instrumental in support for both he and myself if you are finding yourself feeling like you may reoffend.  

If it is a case of wanting to 'start again', think about what moving away would give you versus staying put.  Often running away doesn't solve things, merely kicks the can down the road.  Remove the SO from the equation and I would still offer that same advice.  It's actually no different to the advice I would offer to an underage runaway too.  Work with people to change the things that you hate, and learn the art of acceptance.  It sucks, but I promise it will change your outlook.  

Wishing you all the best and whilst I am concerned about your post I do wonder if maybe it wasn't quite taken in the light that was intended - equally, if it was in the light that it has been perceived, then please know that in the long term your life can return.  It'll never be the same, but you can build a new life for yourself.

Good luck, and stay on the right side of the law.  I'm sure no one wants to go through the hell of arrest, bail, trial ever again, whether it was us as family members or you as the people with the convictions.    



To be fair I do think the SOR is overused, and seems to automatically applied according to the offense and the length of offense, rather than based on the individual needs. There was a ruling some time ago about SHPOs. It found that it must be proportionate and not oppressive and it must tailor the facts of the offences to which it attaches. It does make me think if this should be extended to SOR too. Someone convicted of a downloading offence shouldn't really need to have to notify about travel etc, as this wasn't relevant to the original offence. I as the partner of someone on the SOR, shoudln't have my car registration inputted into their systems, or my details fed into whatever database they use when I travel with him overseas.

I think we all realise that in some cases the SOR is used just because it's there. The length of the registration period is decided by the sentence imposed (or the fact that it was a caution). Unlock has information about that on their website here. That is probably based on the assumption that the punishment fits the crime, whether or not it actually does. The requirements and restrictions should only apply to the person on the SOR, so your passport details shouldn't be input. They do ask for details of any car that the registered person uses, but obviously they have no way of knowing who else might be using it at any time, so I don't see how the information can be helpful to the police where a car is shared, for example. The words "sledgehammer" and "walnut" come to mind, but that does seem to be what the government/police/media want when it comes to sexual offences. 
Zack
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AB2014 - 13 Nov 18 9:42 AM
Zack - 10 Nov 18 1:25 PM
hurrdedurr - 7 Nov 18 7:59 PM
I must say that this post concerns me too.

The bottom line, everyone who is on the SOR has been through a justice procedure and an attempt to run will cause your PPO to almost certainly raise your risk levels and then actually minimise the freedom that you so desperately seek.

A desire to 'start again' once the notification requirements as well can be understood, especially if your details were published in the local news and life has become difficult.  But you can start again in the UK.  My husband is still under notifications and with a lot of help from external agencies and support workers he is holding down a job, rebuilding our relationship, developing friendships again and, most importantly, accepting of the offence that was committed and committed to never becoming involved in any kind of activity that would lead him to get into any kind of trouble with the law.  Even down to paying for 5p carrier bags :-) 

Lucy Faithful Foundation were instrumental in support for both he and myself if you are finding yourself feeling like you may reoffend.  

If it is a case of wanting to 'start again', think about what moving away would give you versus staying put.  Often running away doesn't solve things, merely kicks the can down the road.  Remove the SO from the equation and I would still offer that same advice.  It's actually no different to the advice I would offer to an underage runaway too.  Work with people to change the things that you hate, and learn the art of acceptance.  It sucks, but I promise it will change your outlook.  

Wishing you all the best and whilst I am concerned about your post I do wonder if maybe it wasn't quite taken in the light that was intended - equally, if it was in the light that it has been perceived, then please know that in the long term your life can return.  It'll never be the same, but you can build a new life for yourself.

Good luck, and stay on the right side of the law.  I'm sure no one wants to go through the hell of arrest, bail, trial ever again, whether it was us as family members or you as the people with the convictions.    



To be fair I do think the SOR is overused, and seems to automatically applied according to the offense and the length of offense, rather than based on the individual needs. There was a ruling some time ago about SHPOs. It found that it must be proportionate and not oppressive and it must tailor the facts of the offences to which it attaches. It does make me think if this should be extended to SOR too. Someone convicted of a downloading offence shouldn't really need to have to notify about travel etc, as this wasn't relevant to the original offence. I as the partner of someone on the SOR, shoudln't have my car registration inputted into their systems, or my details fed into whatever database they use when I travel with him overseas.

I think we all realise that in some cases the SOR is used just because it's there. The length of the registration period is decided by the sentence imposed (or the fact that it was a caution). Unlock has information about that on their website here. That is probably based on the assumption that the punishment fits the crime, whether or not it actually does. The requirements and restrictions should only apply to the person on the SOR, so your passport details shouldn't be input. They do ask for details of any car that the registered person uses, but obviously they have no way of knowing who else might be using it at any time, so I don't see how the information can be helpful to the police where a car is shared, for example. The words "sledgehammer" and "walnut" come to mind, but that does seem to be what the government/police/media want when it comes to sexual offences. 

Agree, but the "discreet" check at the border does state that they can report who he is travelling with the target. Whether they do I wouldn't know.
https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/investigations/european-investigations/schengen-information-system/#discreet-check-information
They are only supposed to use such if "there is a clear indication that a person intends to commit or is committing a serious criminal offence" or "they assess a person, in particular regarding their past criminal offences, and believe that the person will commit serious criminal offences in the future."
AFAIK it seems to be that anyone who reports they are going to travel overseas gets one of these alerts if they are on the SOR. If they risk assess someone as low risk should that really be enough justification?

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Zack - 13 Nov 18 8:40 PM

Agree, but the "discreet" check at the border does state that they can report who he is travelling with the target. Whether they do I wouldn't know.
https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/investigations/european-investigations/schengen-information-system/#discreet-check-information
They are only supposed to use such if "there is a clear indication that a person intends to commit or is committing a serious criminal offence" or "they assess a person, in particular regarding their past criminal offences, and believe that the person will commit serious criminal offences in the future."
AFAIK it seems to be that anyone who reports they are going to travel overseas gets one of these alerts if they are on the SOR. If they risk assess someone as low risk should that really be enough justification?

Elsewhere in that same document, it is stated that all SOR people notifying foreign travel are to have an alert on them for a discreet check.

https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/investigations/european-investigations/schengen-information-system/#the-use-of-article-362-alerts-for-visor-nominals

The police have no discretion on this - even if they deem you low risk, they must add an alert if you notify foreign travel.

And I agree with the quotation marks in "discreet". Sometimes in my experience it has been extremely indiscreet.
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