By wandawall - 28 Sep 09 10:45 PM
Even though she was only 13? And is downloading child porn classed as it too? This is what I dont understand, im sooooooo totally lost:
9 FAM 40.21(a) N9.4-1 Under Age 15
(CT:VISA-1318; 09-24-2009)
Juveniles, who were under the age of 15 at the time of omission of acts
constituting a delinquency, are not to be considered as having been
convicted of a crime. Therefore, no alien may be found inadmissible under
INA 212(a)(2)(A)(i)(I) by reason of any offense committed prior to the
alien’s 15th birthday.
9 FAM 40.21(a) N9.4-2 Between Ages 15 and 18
(CT:VISA-1318; 09-24-2009)
Juveniles between the ages of 15 and 18 at the time of commission of an
offense will not be considered to have committed a crime, and thus be
inadmissible under INA 212(a)(2)(A)(i)(I), unless tried and convicted as an
adult for a felony involving violence. A felony is defined in 18 U.S.C 1(1) as
an offense punishable by death or imprisonment for a term exceeding one
year. A crime of violence is defined in 18 U.S.C 16 as:
(1) An offense that has as an element the use, attempted use, or
threatened use of physical force against the person or property of
another; or
(2) Any offense that is a felony and that, by its nature, involves a
substantial risk that physical force against the person or property of
another may be used in the course of committing the offense.
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By Christopher Stacey - 18 Jun 08 1:26 PM
wandawall,
You are referring to the sections which relate to the Embassy making their decision at Visa Interview stage. These paragraphs do not allow people to travel under the VWP.
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By lingsguest - 9 Feb 12 3:13 PM
just found this little article which may help this arguement of moral turpitude, or not 
"Little guidance is provided to the traveler as to which offenses are included in the definition; however the website of the U.S. embassy in London states that a visa is required for anyone who has ever been arrested or convicted for any offense.[9] This appears to be at variance with the question on form I-94W and information supplied by the US Department of Homeland Security, as there are many offenses that are not considered to involve moral turpitude"
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By Worried mum - 1 Sep 12 10:55 AM
Hi can anybody give me some advise please. 18 months ago my son was caught in possession of a small amount of cocaine. He was told by his social worker because he was under the age of 18 when his 9 months prob period was up he would not need to declare it. We are having a family holiday in us soon and didn't think this would be an issue, we already have a esta visa we just need to update and I was not going to declare it. Worried they may be able to see his record after reading comments on here?
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
Hi Worried mum. Was your son arrested, cautioned, charged or convicted? US immigration law states if you have ever been arrested you need to apply for a visa. However the US has no access to UK criminal records, therefore if you don't tell them they won't know.
See this website london.usembassy.gov/vwp3.html, specifically
"Travelers who have been arrested, even if the arrest did not result in a criminal conviction, those with criminal records, (the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply to U.S. visa law), certain serious communicable illnesses, those who have been refused admission into, or have been deported from, the United States, or have previously overstayed on the VWP are not eligible to travel visa free under the Visa Waiver Program"
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By Worried mum - 1 Sep 12 10:55 AM
He was arrested and given a probation period. Totally out of character and a mistake he never wants to repeat! I guess if we don't tell them we will be ok ( hopefully). Thanks for the advicePost Edited (Worried mum) : 01/09/2012 11:44:38 (GMT+1)
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
If he was given probation he must have been convicted. Any drug related conviction is seen by the US as being very serious and is usually a bar to entry. It is your choice as to whether you tell them or not! But they have no way of finding out about the conviction unless you tell them. Unless of course your son is wanted by Interpol!
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By turbo - 2 May 12 5:18 PM
Assault 3.5 years prison 23 years ago, not eligible ever to visit the us, but have been granted a waiver of ineligibility visa 3 times...
tell the truth and you should be ok
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By Mirrorman - 20 Jun 12 9:03 PM
Good to hear, Turbo!
It's not a black and white situation with anything is what I'm finding out.
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By stiched - 21 Jul 14 4:26 PM
How do you know if your offence constitutes Moral Turpitude.
Does Perverting the course of Justice constitute MT?
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By sammym - 27 Jul 14 12:05 AM
I'll only make three points about this:
1) I have been to America a few times. I have never disclosed, and never had any problems.
2) I wouldn't do it now. If you google my name it will give you my name and address and the fact that I was charged with a crime. It doesn't take a genius for them to turn me away now. Anyone who is googleable should not bother in my opinion.
3) I no longer wish to go to America. They talk about moral crimes, whilst undertaking such actions as extraordinary rendition, supporting Israel whilst it is killing thousands of women and children, and still thinks it's not "cruel or unusual" to strap someone down make them say sorry and then murder them in front of their friends and family. If they believe they are more moral than me then they can. However I have never committed such evil, so I will chose to treat them with the disdain with which they think they can treat me and others.
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By Mirrorman - 20 Jun 12 9:03 PM
If I had never been there before I would have went and ticked no for everything, but they have all my details, even my fingerprints.
USA has the most wide reaching and advanced surveillance agencies in the world, they will know if they need to.
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By stuart82 - 6 May 11 7:16 PM
The 'moral turpitude' statement doesn't help as this isn't a phrase we use as part of standard UK English. It's no wonder so many people don't declare when they should.
I didn't declare when I've been there and suddenly my ESTA was revoked. Regardless of whether the UK don't routinely share information with the US, they can and do find out about convictions.
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By Timpson - 27 Jul 14 12:24 PM
stuart82 said...
The 'moral turpitude' statement doesn't help as this isn't a phrase we use as part of standard UK English. It's no wonder so many people don't declare when they should.
I didn't declare when I've been there and suddenly my ESTA was revoked. Regardless of whether the UK don't routinely share information with the US, they can and do find out about convictions.
Is it an offence that can be recorded on the PNC (police national computer)?
To my understanding, there really isn't as much transparency between the US immigration/visa officials and the police/PNC as people think.
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By stuart82 - 6 May 11 7:16 PM
I would doubt not declaring a conviction to a foreign country is an offence that can be recorded on the UK PNC. It will likely be an offence in the country you don't declare it to however.
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By Victor H - 15 Dec 13 7:37 PM
There has been no real evidence to suggest the US has full access to UKs PNC database, if someone did however notify them be it from US or UK then of course it would be recorded but this is rare from my understanding, the US border control would only check into you if some solid reason existed ie you looked nervous or sweating while in the cue or you visited another country which shared the intel with US.
Otherwise just like that massive 70 page+ thread regarding US travel here:
https://www.travellerspoint.com/forum.cfm?thread=22639&start=691
As the vibe on that massive post suggest if its just for a holiday go and have fun
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By stuart82 - 6 May 11 7:16 PM
In the most part I agree that the US don't routinely have access to the UK PNC and wont know about UK criminal records.
Having been to the US a number times since conviction, that's evident. What is also evident however is that after my last trip, I received an email from ESTA stating that my ESTA had been revoked with no explanation other than to apply for a visa at the Embassy. Having done this, I was refused. They had a comprehensive set of information regarding my conviction in front of them. When I say comprehensive, I mean they knew every single detail about it!
So the bottom line is, if you're travelling there infrequently for a holiday for example and choose not to declare, then chances are you'll be OK. If, like me, you travel there frequently for whatever reason then you will probably be caught out in the end.
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By Shieldster - 11 Feb 13 7:16 PM
Just a brief update on this - The US Embassy's decision on using a police caution as a reason to not issue a holiday visa/work visa was changed last year. Before that time, cautions were not applicable as a reason to refuse entry.
However since that time, the embassy officials can and have been refusing visas to applicants with various "past misdemeanours" and do not look favourably upon those who have entered the country under a "misrepresentation". It can cost a significant amount of time to get past this illegibility (if at all).
I would seriously recommend that anyone looking to travel to the US apply through the proper channels, it's not worth it and with all the changes going on in UK law at the moment, hopefully there will be a far better and easier route in the future
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By Christopher Stacey - 18 Jun 08 1:26 PM
wandwall,
The information on the website points out that the question relates to arrests or convictions, so the caution for a fire would also be covered, which is classed as moral turpitude, so she'll have to apply.
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By AJW83 - 19 May 14 2:03 PM
Shieldster said...Just a brief update on this - The US Embassy's decision on using a police caution as a reason to not issue a holiday visa/work visa was changed last year. Before that time, cautions were not applicable as a reason to refuse entry. However since that time, the embassy officials can and have been refusing visas to applicants with various "past misdemeanours" and do not look favourably upon those who have entered the country under a "misrepresentation". It can cost a significant amount of time to get past this illegibility (if at all). I would seriously recommend that anyone looking to travel to the US apply through the proper channels, it's not worth it and with all the changes going on in UK law at the moment, hopefully there will be a far better and easier route in the future
Chances are it will only get worse not be long before the UK are sharing the PNC details to the US enforcement agencies
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By Victor H - 15 Dec 13 7:37 PM
Yup agreed UK and US are very similar and UK is following suite and copying US in many things they are now understanding its a money making scheme, its just more made up thought crimes just like any other law enforcer they require a reason to make a case and get paid for it.
If its just a regular holiday I say go for it and have fun its just very rare they would block you after all. living or working in US is another thing and most likely not worth working in one giant prison state.
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By AJW83 - 19 May 14 2:03 PM
Yeah definitely I mean unless its work chances you will only go to the states a handful of times in a lifetime so just go for it, not like most of us will ever be successful with applying for a visa
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By Victor H - 15 Dec 13 7:37 PM
Unless your cheryl cole 
I do admit US is always the first place people wished to or want to visit after getting into trouble but its not all glamour and like the moves and tv shows you see on telly, one thing that does intrigue me however with US is everyone has a criminal record yet its simply shrugged off or ignored and people just go back to living in the exact same manner they previously had done and it does not appear to effect their current job or careers much if anything they get more chances to make $$$.
This is the only 'it' factor for me since we know in the UK the complete opposite occurs and thought crimes occur more so.
Not sure UK will ever find a working medium since the government clearly forces once a criminal record you stay within that category almost implying since no one will give you a job you only have one way to support yourself ie more crime. Naturally I don't suggest the latter self employment is the biggest key or non thought crime privacy invading employers.
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By AJW83 - 19 May 14 2:03 PM
Haha true but when you have friends pulling strings its easy to get past border control
I think the problem is with the US crime is a norm and seems like people are ok with it but they are paranoid about immigrants or anyone from outside the country which is a joke considering the whole country was based on immigration the UK is starting to get like it now in future your visa will be processed with trial by fire.
Its the media that does it they make people paranoid, short sighted, narrow minded like anyone entering the country or sat at the desk next to you could be the next Jack the Ripper and of course the Government loves to jump on the media bandwagon.
A lot of crimes are a spur of the moment thing and usually a one off unless its something like dealing or theft yet burglary seems to get treated as joke crime nowadays despite the high chances of reoffending yet "that offence" has one of lowest reoffending rates yet punishments last sometimes decades longer because of ancillary orders.Post Edited (AJW83) : 16/11/2014 19:52:48 (GMT+1)
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By Mirrorman - 20 Jun 12 9:03 PM
I do so much research on this even I don't know, in my view this is the situation;
If you have ever been to the States before, they'll know.
If you are on the SOR, they'll know.
If you have managed to attract Interpol notice, they'll know.
If you had extensive media coverage, they'll know.
If you have any convictions for terrorism, or any terrorist affiliations ,they'll know.
Look at what they have added for the ESTA, even more info.
Otherwise they will not have a clue and providing you say nothing you'll breeze through fine.
I've been to the states many times before, but will not chance it without getting a waiver of ineligibility.
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