Post Edited (Q3) : 10/08/2013 21:20:01 (GMT+1)

Q3

“Never take the word of anybody on here, make your own choices and decisions” (Q3)

Yes spot on 100%, so I did and found out the truth myself.  Mine doesn’t come from the news or other people’s opinions. So Q3, what’s your life like and judging form previous comments, not too good eh? Here’s some news, the recession is officially over – must be true, some EU Minister said it. Austerity is good for you, again true DC said it. We all have choices, you stick to your minimum wage building site guard job and I’ll stick to the opportunities I’ve found here. No Q3, you are not a leader, you’re one of the systems followers; you’ll do as you’re told and spend your life complaining and moaning about it. I’m life’s drill sergeant and you know I’m never wrong, remember?   

P.S You probably came to Thailand looking for smut and found it, lots of it. (Naughty, naughty). Shame you had to go back three times to re-check; if you’d have asked I could have told you that any major UK city has red light areas and you could have saved yourself the trouble.

To all

There are plenty of firearms available in Thailand. They’re available everywhere in Asia and many are leftovers from Pohl Pots Cambodia and the Vietnam war. Here’s some more news based on personal experience; the UK inner cities are also flooded with them and I could as easily have bought one in the UK as I can here in Thailand now. Political unrest? Yes certainly, back in 2010 and the occasional riot – just like the ‘summer riots’ and looting in the UK. I’ve walked around Bangkok often at night, when is the last time any of us including me walked around an inner city area in Liverpool, Manchester or London? From personal experience I feel a lot safer here in Asia than I ever did in the UK and I’ve not come across a ‘no-go’ area for foreigners yet.

Don’t get me wrong, I wish I could have had this lifestyle in the UK, but I’m one of those that will never be officially rehabilitated and just as you would move to another part of town, or to another part of the UK to improve your job prospects, I moved 6,000 miles away to improve mine. The only difference is distance. I still work in the rat race, I still have to pay taxes, I still have bills to pay and it’s certainly not all lying on a beach under a palm tree stuff. A dream lifestyle it is, but it’s not promised to you by some Minister of verbal garbage in the UK, it’s something that you work towards and I think that is a problem for some to understand in a country that believes in equality and entitlements and all must be the same. My posts are not about a country without problems, they’re about what you can make of yourself in just about any country when you’re able to take away the UK government restrictions that hold you back and promise you a minimum wage as a goal in life. 

So, to sum up. Don’t listen to the government and don’t take to much heed of the media propaganda. All countries have problems, but all countries also have opportunities, just that with our pasts, some have more than others. Post conviction life makes a lot of people bitter, they feel safe and secure doing what they’re told, sticking to the known . . . yet for the adventurous types there is hope, as millions who have already done it will tell you. I’m not saying do it, I’m telling you what I did and it’s something that worked.

Oh, I’ve never said that I dislike the UK. I dislike how it’s run, politicians, rules and regulations . . . but never the country itself. The crime(s) I committed don’t need to be gone into, but they resulted in double figure prison sentences and spanned a couple of decades – I believe I was referred to as a ‘career criminal’. There are people here who didn’t even get a prison sentence and are barred from any gainful employment. Real guts, well there’s an anomaly. I can and have trekked through jungles and my working environment now touches -30 in the winter, so no problems there.

Guts – surviving long term prison environments with the worst in the UK and coming out the other side alive and still mentally capable. Having the determination to go the course, not give up, improve and get from Category A prisoner to a teacher. Not many have done that, no one led me, no one told me what to do – I did it. Quite proud of it actually and I come on here to tell people that there’s hope. This isn’t me bragging, I tell people this is what I did and how I did it. Adventures? I prefer to forget mine, they give me nightmares and there was no safety net. Go watch ‘McVicar’ or Jimmy Boyles experiences in the Scottish prisons for a taste of no holds barred adventures.   

I never escaped really. What I did is escape the worst recession in living memory and it’s not over for you lot yet. In the good old days of the early to mid 2000’s a good HGV1 driver was earning 1000 a week before tax but I always knew I was capable of a lot more. It’s called progression, people move onto better things which is what I did. I’m not alone, millions have also done it, with or without a criminal conviction. Many here can’t even get a job down Tesco’s, now perhaps you’d offer them some advice?  

My main problem is with the government telling me I can never be rehabilitated and somewhat shamedly, I’m beginning to see The Foxes take on this. I’m in my late 50’s, I have a bunch of degrees, work skills, life experience and all the rest of it. I’m classed as a social and economic outcast because of what I did a quarter of a century ago? I’m expected to stand meekly in front of someone half my age whilst they tut tut about my being a bad boy and have a HR conference on whether to give me a chance to sweep their floors for six pounds something an hour? My problem is that I was never a follower, which got me into a lot of trouble in my earlier days, but having turned round, that same doggedness, refusal to obey and do what I think is best for me has now got me to the top of the food chain.

I’ve paid my share of UK taxes; I’ve been crime free for decades; I’ve obeyed the law and voted . . . and I have to beg for work and have to ‘prove’ myself for the rest of my life? (There follows a series of expletives)! Having now thought about what all this has got to do with teaching, well it’s better than begging, slipping into drug or alcohol abuse and much better than being unemployed, or what’s the nicey term now – low waged? Nope, I’ve no regrets even if it makes Mr. Cameron “physically ill” and the Daily Mail readers choke on their buttered scones. It’s better staying in the UK and putting up with it? I can assure you it’s not and I don’t care what Reuters, The University of Sydney or the UK government tell me. I’ve made my own bed, I’m lying in it and to tell you the truth, it’s rather comfy these days and comes with a nice view! You be careful with those ducks, they’ll be available down your local food bank if the recession carries on like this for much longer. Time is 1730 and it’s +40 outside. Cheers.      

P.S Do you mean Chiang Mai, not Rai, because that's where the US forces were stationed. Chiang Rai is further up near the Laos border and there are no UK forces there unless perhaps you were special forces (SAS/SBS). Oh please, not that, we've enough 007's and ex- secret agents stories in the bars here to last a lifetime.

Yes, it’s sounding like that, isn’t it. Can’t say I’m proud of where I’ve been and what I’ve done, but I’ve certainly come a long way since. Plodding through the jungles with my bag of English Grammar, killing the mosquito’s with my Collins dictionary and doing a Captain Scotty in -30 temperatures . . . .  Well, not quite, but extremes in temperatures just as a  hazardous existence have always been part of my make-up – perhaps that’s left over from my more adventurous days?

Can’t understand why people would be so negative in changing their lives though. ‘Where there’s a will’ and ‘go for it’ seem perfectly normal to me. Anything but a stagnating existence waiting for something to happen and so called ‘changes’. Don’t know if it’s a generation thing, but there’s a general despondency these days, a sort of giving up or waiting to see if it’s safe enough to jump. Oh well, each to his own. 

The thing is, there’s a huge recession/depression going on in the world. I haven’t felt it; I have never used a food bank and haven’t visited a job center since Thatcher’s recession in the 80’s. I’ve insulated myself from all this misery that’s going on and in the same sense, the ROA no longer has any meaning for me as it doesn’t affect me. I’m not watching house prices going down, empty high streets, worrying about my financial position, the useless LASPO . . . . . Why would anyone, but especially those who have a past, think the UK is a good place to be in?

Post Edited (IanC) : 10/08/2013 13:43:04 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (Q3) : 10/08/2013 21:21:01 (GMT+1)

You’re not being bullied Richard, you’re just being told in a rather abrupt way that you may find out yourself soon enough what we already know.

The problem with disclosure and checks is that it’s now so common that even Morrison’s CRB checked all there new employers in one store on the news today. ALL Richard, not just the relevant jobs. Now how did they manage to do that by sticking to the rules?

If you did lie on an application form when asked and the company found out, you would be fired and it will tell you that on just about any application form. To disclose or not is not a cherry pick for the individual and that’s everybody’s point. Checks are being done now by just about everybody and even a Lollypop lady would have problems getting away without one. The excuse used is that the employee will be working with the public and that covers just about any job going.

I can’t properly ‘engage’ with you Richard, you post so much rubbish that it’s laughable for those of us who know.  

Firstly, there were no checks involved in doing a postgrad Criminology degree. Its theory based and doesn’t involve working with ex/offenders, the police or the prison service, although most of the intake comes from those involved in the CJS. Most went to work in the CJS, I couldn’t. I did mine 15 years ago, p/t over two years and it cost me 3k a year. Are there checks now? I don’t know. I believe CS has a Masters in law and Andy H, (where did he go), is doing a Ph.D with the OU.

Richard and I’ll repeat; go and find me instances of where I’ve encouraged people to commit fraud, buy degrees, and falsify documents. Methinks you’re reading into posts that which isn’t there?

Your theoretical position on reform is admirable and it’s just what it says in the blurb, but unfortunately practice raises its ugly head and for many it’s either self-employment or a lifetime of dole queues. That’s fact Richard. It may not sound nice, it may not be what the government says, it may not fit in with the ideas of rehabilitation, but that’s the reality. If it were as simple and as straight forward as you imagine it is, there would be no need for a forum like this.

I don’t ask you or anybody else to do what I did, but if I took your position I wouldn’t be where I am now. That’s the bottom line Richard; if you’re sentenced to a period in jail, when you come out you do what I did using your outraged position on morality and tell me how you did it.

OK, I’ll say it again, don’t use fraud to move on, but use your discretion about telling people about your past because someone else says you deserve to be at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. In the world of the CJS which you are about to enter, you will find that everything is not as black and white as you now imagine.    

Post Edited (Q3) : 17/08/2013 20:55:54 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (Q3) : 17/08/2013 21:19:17 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (RichardH) : 17/08/2013 21:56:06 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (Q3) : 17/08/2013 23:06:40 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (RichardH) : 18/08/2013 00:36:47 (GMT+1)

Q3 said...
Thanks Ian.

 

I think, I will also be using the " Need to Know" basis of thinking in my life from now on.

 

Lots of people ask lots of questions, but do they really need to know the answers.

 

As for the fraud issue, surely it's only fraud if you get caught !! (That was a joke CS). 

 

From a personal view, I am really starting to see things from a totally different and fresh prospective.

 

Q3

   

Aaah, a convert. Yes, people ask questions and the more they get to know you the more they ask. Remember though, that your best friend also has best friends and might not always be your best friend and your partner, if and when you split, will have access to information which can destroy you and time after time on these threads that is exactly what has happened. You want the world to know about your past? Put up a sign in your front garden advertising it. You wouldn’t? Neither would I.

We live in a modern era. It’s not unusual to have had half a dozen jobs in the last ten years. It’s not unusual to get a divorce and move locations. It’s not unusual to have gaps in your CV. I bounce around Asia and rarely stay in one job or one country for more than a couple of years. I don’t look on non-disclosure as a criminal offence – fraud is actively using false information to deceive someone for gain. I simply don’t give out the information in the first place, which then leaves opportunities for others to judge and set up restrictions affecting my life based on their personal judgment. I’m not a member of Facebook or other social sites which collect personal information. I don’t give out my email to everyone who asks for it on the internet and if you want to know how old I am, ask. I and only I might tell you, but you won’t force it out of me with laws that tell me you need to know because it’s in my best interests.

It is not the place of an employer to further judge me; you take me as you find me and I hope I come across as a pretty well balanced individual to most employers and my friends. What I did twenty years ago, how many times I’ve been divorced or my hobbies and interests are my business and not for public consumption and gossip. Now that might sound rather strange to the UK, but its par for the course in many other parts of the world and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Where’s Richard, my sparring partner?  

Post Edited (IanC) : 15/08/2013 10:03:13 (GMT+1)

First of all, I do not delete my posts and usually edit just to add something on instead of starting a new post. I stand by everything I’ve said. Now, go and find a post where I’m encouraging people to commit fraud or make up academic degrees. I’ve said the exact opposite, don’t do fraud as the risk is too great.

I didn’t lie and cheat to become a teacher, I have the necessary qualifications to become one, but not in the UK because there’s a bar on it. What don’t you understand about my saying I HAVE DEGREES? Why do you keep on insisting I’m lieing when I say it and telling others to do the same as me and fiddle it? I simply moved elsewhere to do it and took my degrees with me. My references are impeccable and I got the first one as a prison volunteer in Thailand. The second I got as a volunteer in a school and so it went on. None of my references I’ve ever made up.  

OK, so YOU don’t need to move abroad to better yourself, but there are some who need to. If you don’t want to, then don’t go, it’s that simple? So, by not disclosing, where are these serious offences I’ve committed?  

You go and build your own life up and leave others to decide how to move on in their own lives Richard. No one has to take my route. So, you’re saying people can move on with a criminal record? Yes, some can and some can’t. The ones that can’t will find other ways, like me.

Something you might be interested to know – you CAN’T lie about historic convictions if they aren’t spent, that in itself is breaking the law and you'll find that out yourself if they catch you. I’m also perfectly aware of what I can and can’t legally do Richard, my Masters degree was in Criminology. I better than most know what I can and can’t do. My convictions are never spent.

Yet you’re right, we all have choices and we all must accept responsibility for our actions. I accept responsibility for mine, have no regrets and don’t insist others follow my route – but if there’s no other way, perhaps it gives food for thought to some with more serious pasts. The problem is Richard is that you’re coming into this as a petty first time offender whose past will soon be forgotten and the slate will be wiped clean. It doesn’t work like that for many and a quick read through the threads will show you that there’s more than one here who is unemployed and unemployable because of what happened years or even decades ago. Everyone has to make their own mind up. As long as it doesn’t cause harm to others, I have and will continue to use morality and not the law to move myself forward and if you, the CJS, Cameron or LASPO don’t agree, that’s tough. I don't lie back and accept things Richard, I move forwrds and it's not by obeying the laws and morality of others.

P.S An Edit. I continually and unashamably never declared on insurance forms either, which the government itself now agrees shouldn't be done. Do you think I know something that it took them decades to find out?  

Post Edited (IanC) : 17/08/2013 17:44:56 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (RichardH) : 17/08/2013 19:23:01 (GMT+1)

Fortunately I don’t declare. That gets me around the world. Travelling presents me with opportunities. Opportunities I’m not slow to grasp. It all fits in easily with my philosophy.

I live in a place where I can buy certain things cheaply and tried it out by taking an item back to Bangkok as hand luggage and made a huge profit. Already I’ve got some more orders from word of mouth, but I can only take so many back as they’re fragile and bulky and so I want to advertise to a wider audience and sell by Paypal or International money order. My products sell for between 25 to 100 GBP, so it’s not colossal amounts, but they are sought after items.  

I’ve found a web hosting site that will let me use their templates to make the site and host it for a few U.S $ on a one year rental. Cheap and easy, I think, but using meta tags for key words, or how to promote the site leaves me baffled. Fire away, I live and learn and perhaps this might give ideas to others also?

Just as an aside; many years ago I friend I had was heavily into car boot sales. One day I was watching him get ready and he had a piece of wood about 5” x 2”. I asked home what it was for and what he said has stayed with me since then. He said, “Someone in the world is making something right now and that piece of wood is just what they’re looking for. When I find them, or they find me, they’ll buy it because it’s what they want and they’ll pay me the price I want”! I found the product, now I want to find the man who wants to buy it because it’s just what they want.

la-kawn (Goodbye) sawatdee (Hello). Kap Kuhn Kap.     

No Ader, I’ve never been back, can’t see the point of returning. Yes, you’re right, I’ll start another thread.

“You have this slightly annoying habit . . . . . “ Oh, I’ve got lots of them. Yet as you say we can’t always have what we want, my reply was, Yes we can, within reason.

My implication of having to wait around waiting for something to happen, will happen if you obey the law to the letter. Just my opinion of course, but the squeaky clean you would run their lives according to the dictates of others are in for a long wait.

There is no ‘fantasy’ of running away to Thailand, or for that matter anywhere else. The fantasy, as you will discover on the forum, is that to stay in the UK is a dead end for many.

No Richard, I picked what I wanted to do and did it. What I wanted wasn’t achievable in the UK, so I went elsewhere and did it. It really is as simple as that. I wouldn’t even get a job sweeping the playground in any school in the UK, never mind teaching!

“ . . . you've chosen to take some extra shortcuts and basically commit fraud by falsifying documents.” Where on earth did you get that statement from? I can assure you I’ve never falsified a document. I have two Degrees (B.A and B.Sc) and a Masters (M.A) from UK Universities Richard and spent ten years at various ones. What stopped me from being a teacher in the UK was not a lack of qualifications, but my past - so I went elsewhere. Obviously you think I was born a HGV driver? What I recommended was that others don’t buy dodgy ones, not that I’d done so.

You say I read into posts what I want to hear? ">

Q3 said...
Regarding the online e-commerce site Ian, yes I look forward to a new thread if you are actually allowed to discuss such things on here.

It sounds like a really good idea, however, fragile and bulky, are two words, I don't like hearing when it comes to stock and shipping items.

Meta Tags and SEO (Search Engine Optimisation) is an art and another world.

However there are also other great ways to get the word out there.  

Give me the head's up when you re-forum post

 

In regards to the current rutting your having with Richard,, well, from a personal view Ian, you have opened up my eyes.

I am the first to admit, that I have been a bit blinkered and very naïve to certain things and issues. 

The more I read your input, the more it seems to make sense.

 

 

Anyway, all the very best to everyone involved in this posting.  

I think Richard simply misread my posts and I’ve always said I draw the line at fraud; I simply don’t tell anyone anything unless I want to and certainly not, if it’s not in my best interests and will be used against me. I try not to get involved in politics; what is a requirement today will often change tomorrow when it suits the government, not when it suits the individual. I’m sure Mr. Cameron is a nice man, but his policies are not helping me and he goes against the whole concept of rehabilitation, unless he’s forced to accede by the ECHR. I’ve simply refused to play, taken my ball back and taken up another interest which best suits me.

I did open a thread about self-employment, but its buried under Other Areas of life and Preparing myself for the worst.

Post Edited (Q3) : 18/08/2013 17:55:43 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (RichardH) : 18/08/2013 17:20:46 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (RichardH) : 18/08/2013 17:35:45 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (Q3) : 18/08/2013 17:57:17 (GMT+1)

Richard, take another deep breath. I have lived through forty years of the ROA, please believe me, I don’t exaggerate and they’re not myths. It’s no point starting a new thread; the same people will answer it and tell you you’re talking nonsense. Well no, to be fair I shouldn’t say that as I’m not sure what you’re saying, but it is coming across as a nonsense rambling.

We and I’m talking of the people who are replying to you here don’t do conspiracy mate, we live it, it’s true and we know because we’re on the receiving end and you’re not. Information people can get from the UNLOCK helpline; the forum is experienced based and populated by people who have experience, or alternatively are looking for those who have it. You have neither Richard and it’s this that makes your posts a jumble of incoherent personal ramblings.

No offence Richard, but the CJS is a mass of individuals like yourself who read from the same text book. You have the answers because that what it says should happen. Life isn’t like that – ‘it shouldn’t happen like that, therefore it doesn’t’. You base your ideas of exaggeration and myths on what? Certainly not experience Richard and it’s why people are tearing your arguments to bits.      

Post Edited (RichardH) : 18/08/2013 13:46:17 (GMT+1)

“All checks comply with the law and are carried out with the full knowledge and authorisation of all applicants.”  And if you don’t agree you don’t get the job and if something comes back they suddenly decide you’re not unsuitable after all and the offer is withdrawn – not because of what was discovered, surely not, and you’ll never prove that was the reason.

Who was it on this forum ages ago who tried for – I think it was KFC, but one of those types of places anyway and attempted to fill out their application form online. As soon as you answer ‘yes’ to the question it knocks you back to the beginning of the page! We all thought it was hilarious at the time, but it was a macabre forced sort of humour. Who in their right minds wants to put themselves through the Morrison’s meat grinder, or the thousands like them?!

The point is Richard. most of what people say on here are things based on personal experience, not what we think of or stuff we got off the internet. Your arguments make sense theoretically, but not in practice and thats where you fall apart. You still haven't been sentenced yet and you're giving everybody your views on post conviction life and what it's like for people? You got this 'knowledge' from where? You think Richard - we know!   

Post Edited (RichardH) : 18/08/2013 13:58:51 (GMT+1)

Ader

Not heard anything about these new certificates coming into force, but I wouldn’t be surprised for places like the U.S, Europe and Australia/Canada – the politically correct places. I was asked for one a couple of times and found my own (legal) way around it, but it’s not a thing you come across often. I think what people often focus on are themselves without talking into account that you’re one of millions and to be honest, governments rely more on the somewhat dozy types who insist on telling every Tom, Dick and Harry about themselves and then complain because everyone knows. Appearance is everything and you will usually be taken at face value. After a while, you will come to accept what you are and it’s then that the present takes over from the past and it all sort of slides into history.   

Richard

Well, I think we agree that life goes on, but what I’m saying is that it doesn’t move far enough in the right direction for me so I give it a gentle push? When I go to bed at night I sleep easily and so does everyone else who I’ve come into contact with that day. That’s my reform.

You might not be able to lose 30Ibs and marry an Argentinian super model, but I will and have become a professional, have a middle class lifestyle and I am not restricted by the ROA in what I can do and am capable of. That’s the difference between us Richard – if I think I’m capable of doing something I’ll go for it and try. You on the other hand will wait for someone to tell you if you are allowed to.

Now, if you don’t need to go to the lengths of emigrating to realize a dream, you stay and wait for it to get better. I set both the goals and standards for my own life, not others. I don’t commit fraud and wouldn’t encourage it but you seem to think I do, I just don’t declare which is not fraud for gain, but a lie to achieve. Just as you’ve said you’d lie for a supermarket job, but not for something bigger.

To say to someone, “Oh well, just make the best of it” or, “Just keep trying” is about as useless as it gets, don’t you think? What advice would you give Richard? “Well, we’ve just got to, you know, persevere, you know, just accept things?” You accept them Richard; I’m not a first time offender and my eyes are blue, not green. I can assure I am reformed, not maybe in the sense you would like me to be, but I can also assure you I haven’t re-offended for decades, hurt anyone by my actions and contribute to society.

That’s what the forum is for Richard, not a collection of individuals who sit quietly, gather dust and stagnate and quiver at the thought of actually doing something. So far I’ve achieved everything I set out to do and I did that not by doing what I’m told. My moral philosophy has worked for me, has yours worked for you?

Off on a tangent. Because of where I am, I’m now thinking of going into a p/t export business. I’ve just sold a product in Thailand for 500% profit and need to set up a webpage and hopefully double that. In HTML? I’ve no idea, what’s that? Yet there are a lot of people here far more knowledgeable than me about these things – if it’s allowed. I simply talk about things I’ve done and that have worked for me. We all need ideas Richard and we use them as a menu; we pick and choose our way through life. I gather from your original thread you’re somewhat new to our ranks – welcome aboard and tell me the same thing you’re telling me now in a decade.

Post Edited (RichardH) : 18/08/2013 13:23:54 (GMT+1)

Q3

No problem. We all have ideas and ways we’ve done things. Some we agree with, others we don’t, but if someone has jumped a hurdle it’s interesting to know how and the consequences. You can’t write off whole countries as a destination based on stories from the internet. The U.S for example is one big horror story if we listened to the news and I’ve never been there, but I’m sure there are opportunities there and the people, (less the officials), are perfectly nice and the lifestyle is OK. As foreigners, in many countries many of the everyday restrictions don’t apply and as our knowledge and skills are wanted we tend to have a better time of it than the locals – in many places, thankfully. It’s got to be better than banging your head against a wall in the UK?

RP

China is generally 1984 Orwell gone mad and then some. Thankfully, most of it doesn’t apply to the foreigners and all have a ‘leader’ who sorts out the problems. The internet is no problem; yes, Youtube, facebook, twitter are blocked, but not for foreigners who use free VPN’s – it’s their own populations who get blocked. Fortunately there are 1.3 bn people in China and everyone wants to learn English, so not only are there lots of jobs available, the salaries are quite high too.

Chinese schools generally require two years experience, minimum, unless it’s for private places like EF and Wall Street, (places to definitely avoid)! If you haven’t taught for years you know yourself it will show and so my tip was to get some update experience in Thailand and then move on. China also operates on levels of education, degree minimum, then postgrad . . . it reflects in your salary. So no recent experience with a bog standard degree WILL get you a job, but it WILL be poorly paid. The first question you WILL be asked is, where have you worked (teaching) and often, why did you leave? Yes you’re right, for work Thailand is just about played out now and just about everyone I know is moving on. I meet people from the UK, the U.S and all over; the underlying consensus is that a well paid job is now at the top of everyone’s priorities and if you can weather out the economic western disaster elsewhere, why not? China is still a developing country and you can’t wipe out half a decade of political mis-management overnight – socially it’s still a hundred years behind the west, but surging forward and for all it’s faults, (and it does have many), it’s not the East that is stopping you working, but the great enlightened west?  

Richard

It sounds nice in theory, but the people who make these laws in the UK make sure the loopholes are well and truly closed. That means one section of society telling another how they are going to live. 'Trouble' to me would be not being able to work, often for the rest of your life, because someone else will stop you doing so. I’m not Jewish, but if the law said I would have to wear a yellow star I’d refuse to do so as well. I’m all for obeying laws; we all have to pay taxes, behave and there are penalties for not doing so and if we disobey that then we’re (quite rightly) punished – but the punishment has to stop eventually. You can’t say to someone, “you will never work again”, it’s just not right. Perhaps I see things a different way, but you can no more stop me working, as you can telling me I couldn’t go to the pictures, or drive a car . . . I just won’t obey and I do think the government play on this fear of authority and everyone doing what they’re told. It only works if people obey, if you refuse it looses its power over you. To each his own though, but if we’re all agreed that the government is restrictive, I don’t encourage them by playing along with it.

Post Edited (RichardH) : 12/08/2013 14:37:02 (GMT+1)

Richard,

I certainly wouldn’t encourage people to do anything, but I would present reasons for doing so and discuss the ethics or consequences of either of those actions.

I also don’t think it’s an extreme to say that if you declare you’re not likely to be in any kind of decent employment. Hence people complaining that they keep getting rejected? I’m afraid resourcefulness doesn’t really come into, being CRB/DBS checked has much more of an effect. I’m also sure that racism in its day was unfair, as was homophobia . . . I didn’t blindly follow any of that either, just because it was the law. People make laws and laws are changed – I follow my own ethical standards, others are free to follow theirs.

“If I was going for a job in a supermarket stacking shelves, I think I would be justified in lying and it's very unlikely anyone would bother about it, even if the lie was discovered.” An about turn? Yes, your employer probably would be bothered and you’d probably be sacked. I don’t change Richard, I stick to my own standards and disobey that which harms me – I don’t cherry pick. I obey the speed limit, but I disobey a law which tells me I won’t be able to work because of my past, ever, or that my car insurance premium is treble because I stole a packet of crisps six years ago.

I did regularly lie on insurance forms. I did that because it’s unjust, profit seeking and even the government have now slightly changed that in the recent LASPO. It’s just that I was not declaring before it became law. Fabricating references/CV? I believe the figure in the UK is something like 50% in a recent employers survey? I did actually say not to make up false University degrees and there are places that do them in Bangkok which I specifically said to avoid.

No one, unless they’re doing it for criminal reasons gets a conviction for not disclosing. They are often simply sacked. No employer to date has been fined as far as I know for running illegal checks. Each to his own Richard, struggle through, disclose, declare, play the game – I’m happy where I am, hope you’re happy with no problems also.

I’ll agree with you when you imply that lieing to obtain employment for fraud or personal gain is dishonest and there is a law against it. Yet to have to lie to simply be able to work and earn a living can’t be right either and for many it really is that simple. Of course it is never necessary to lie, but the consequences are long term, even a life term, of unemployment.

There is no spin on my part. Obey LASPO, disclose, obey the law to the letter and . . . you’ll probably end up long term unemployed like many on the forum. Of course, you can always continue trying, get letters of reference from a probation officer; but you know, in the middle of the worst recession (some might say ever), mass cheap labour and a collapsing economy, people don’t need added burdens. There are people here who can’t even get a voluntary job sweeping the streets because of a past record and that is simply not on.

Now if you want to obey to the strict letter of the law, then that’s what you must do. I do start from the position of “this is what I want to do” and not, “Am I allowed to do this’? (As an aside, if I disclosed, I wouldn’t even get near a job). Included in that is can I do the job? Do I have the qualifications? If the only reason that I can’t get the job is because of my past, then that is a social restriction masquerading as the law. I refuse to obey laws that oppress me, (sounds sort of 1960’s that doesn’t it), but I don’t give a toss about laws to be honest and emigrated to get away from them. I went straight to improve myself, social conscience and stuff, shame . . . but if the end result is a lifetime of unemployment at the bottom of the economic and social ladder, what was the point?

I do see your point about being honest, but there’s a point where honesty turns into stupidity. I gave up hoping and banging my head against a brick wall and did something about it. Others are able to choose for themselves. My morals are pretty good now as is my social standing and I contribute to the society that I live in. Now that to me and everyone else does more good than my holding my head up down the Job center in the UK.  

The bottom line Richard is you do it your way and I'll do it mine and everyone else can take their pick. The difference is that I will never (fingers crossed), be on here telling the world how hard life is and complaining. I found my niche in life, it's what I wanted and if I had to tell some porkies along the way to do it I won't lose any sleep over it.        

Post Edited (Q3) : 10/08/2013 21:06:20 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (Q3) : 10/08/2013 21:21:38 (GMT+1)

Post Edited (Q3) : 10/08/2013 23:17:28 (GMT+1)

Missed whatever was said (and deleted), as your evening is my early hours of the morning. Sometimes we take things back and on second thoughts delete what we’ve said, but I wonder why you need to constantly post and delete Q3? Your choice of course, just wondering.

You have to forgive people for the cynicism Q3, we’ve heard a lot of it before. For a lot of people post conviction life is difficult and especially in the UK. The mindset is that this is the law, but I’ve always reiterated that it only applies to the UK. The UK has some of the most restrictive laws in Europe and once away from them, life generally becomes much easier. I for instance would be shocked if I found an application form here which asked for previous convictions. I also buy my insurance here based on current and predictable risks; what happened twenty years ago, or even yesterday has no bearing on it. My employment depends on my ability to do the job, nothing else. My life here is what I make it and not what the government thinks it should be.

Would my life be as successful in the UK in this recession? Absolutely not. I’d manage, I wouldn’t declare, I’d struggle along looking over my shoulder and I’d get by and so my posts reflect that and tell people not to be discouraged by the UK and that life isn’t the same elsewhere. TV licences, fishing permits, disclosure . . . you’ve got to tell everyone else about your past because someone else told you to; it’s completely alien to much of the rest of the world. Economically too, the UK looks like it’s on its last legs?

If you have managed to get on your feet after a conviction in the UK, then good luck to you and I’m glad you’ve made it. I know people here in Asia who have past convictions and they’ve made it too, but I’ve yet to meet anyone who is restricted in what they can do and it’s all down to individual ability. I’ve always thought that the best person gets the job and I’ve no problem with that. If I’m beaten at the finishing line by someone who is more qualified or more able than I am I’ve no problem with that. I do have a problem being forced to go cap in hand to earn a living and told to disclose my past because someone else tells me that it’s for my own and societies good. It’s not and I refuse to do it and hence I am where I am. (Stick that in your LASPO Cameron)!         

Post Edited (Ader1) : 13/08/2013 13:39:11 (GMT+1)

Interesting piece of news here. Not to do with TEFL, but as this is an active thread about disclosure:

https://www.bedfordshire-news.co.uk/News/Morrisons-slammed-for-snooping-on-job-applicants-20130818080000.htm

"CONCERNS are being raised about the privacy of staff at a new supermarket being invaded after background checks were carried out on all employees with no reason for doing so.

All of the 295 staff working at the new Morrisons, due to open in Ampthill Road, Bedford, tomorrow morning, have been checked by the company to find out not only about any criminal convictions, but also reprimands, warnings and cautions for minor offences which would be categorised as spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974.

Harmless though they may seem, privacy campaigners fear that the company is being overzealous with its checks by delving too deep into a person’s record by using an agency of the Scottish Government, Disclosure Scotland, even though they may only be stacking shelves.

In English law, the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS), formerly the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB), carries out checks on people who will be working with children or vulnerable adults or in situations where there is a high risk. Staff such as those working in the retail industry would not be eligible for such checks.

A spokeswoman for the DBS said: “The DBS does not provide a check that we can find or any kind of eligibility that a normal member of retail staff would have.”

Nick Pickles, director of privacy and civil liberties campaign group Big Brother Watch, said: “Background checks are there to protect vulnerable people and children and shouldn’t be used routinely like this. A piece of paper is no substitute for proper judgement by a manager and it’s exactly the same safety-by-database approach that has been wholly counterproductive in recent years.

“Parliament changed the law on this last year to expressly limit the use of these checks and it raises questions about what is going on when Morrisons is using the Scottish Government’s system to check on English staff, where there is no question about the role being one that could pose a safety risk.”

A generic application form for any position with a Morrisons store tells the applicant that if they take up employment it ‘may be necessary for security purposes for Morrisons to carry out a credit reference check on senior, night and duty management, all cash office employees, warehouse, petrol and pharmacy management, checkout management and security and central salaried personnel.’

The form says nothing about ordinary floor or till staff being checked or anything about their previous convictions.

Morrisons told Bedfordshire on Sunday that the reason they insist all staff be subjected to the checks is because their customers expect it and that it is important they understand the background of the people they employ.

A spokesman for the supermarket chain said: “We undertake background checks to ensure our stores are safe places to shop and work. All checks comply with the law and are carried out with the full knowledge and authorisation of all applicants.”

Er... because you seem to think that intelligence on someone's past cannot be accessed unless done officially, that only the DBS have access to the PNC. You also seem to believe that there has been no instances of a CRB/DBS check being done without consent. You are aware of the recent story of the RSPCA having access to criminal records?

I know this is all new to you, but please give us a little credit. I don't proclaim to be a master criminal, but I have been in the CJS for 10 years now and can tell you some proper horror stories of abuse of confidentiality and trust.