By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
Being somewhat cynical I decided to apply for a basic disclosure certificate from Disclosure Scotland to check if my conviction has been filtered as it was spent on 10th March 2014 with the changes to ROA. I live in England. The offence is still listed on the certificate. I called Disclosure Scotland and there was no one able to deal with my issue. Their complaints email address (complaints@disclosurescotland.co.uk) is not valid.
I am livid. Any legal advice as to what can be done? This could be happening to other people who have declared no convictions. It is an absolute outrage. Surely disclosure of information such as this is an offence? Oh wait it's one rule for the government...
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By Steve0606 - 7 Apr 13 4:11 PM
What was your exact sentence and date of conviction?
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By The Stig - 11 Mar 11 6:26 PM
I was thinking the very same thing today about this has this is what I will be doing in March next year as my rehabilitation end,s. But now aim as answered my question I would like to see if there are other people going though the same problem. If your conviction is spent under the new rehabilitation it should not be on a basic check standard yes but not basic.
Aim I would contact Unlock and see what they say about it. Please keep us posted on how you get on with this as I would like to know the out come. I can see your outrage and I would be the same.
Good luck Aim
We all accept our crimes but should we be punished more for it?
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By Victor H - 15 Dec 13 7:37 PM
First I have heard of this but this is terrible news indeed
It could be that records take time to get updated I have long suspected some bloke in I.T tapping away with his keyboard simply pressing the delete button on some guys criminal conviction. The issue being is no one knows the exact process and who exactly is doing the updating, I also reckon someone does know this guy and department and has his number but it may be that its just a process of updating each record to comply with law etc
Perhaps unlock can advise here on any way to get this updated quicker?
That complaints email you said is invalid so one has to dig further I would also suggest writing a complaint headed letter (recorded delivery) to scotland disclosure since they hold information regarding you which is incorrect and illegal by law and demand the information be updated or altered to comply with law. Someone has to do something at that point as in someone who knows something.
Remember you may be an ex-offender but everyone is a criminal in this world and just like yourself you can use the law against them.
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By Deb S - 16 Sep 11 1:36 PM
Hi Aim
Please give the Unlock Helpline a call. Without details of your caution/conviction it is difficult to comment but I am sure we will be able to assist if you give us a call.
Best wishes
Unlock Helpline
Unlock Helpline - confidential peer advice on overcoming the effects of criminal convictions
Call: 01634 247350
Text: 07824 113848
Email: advice@unlock.org.uk
Write: Helpline, Unlock, Maidstone Community Support Centre, 39-48 Marsham Street, Maidstone, Kent, ME6 5AG
For online self-information information, visit hub.unlock.org.uk
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By The Stig - 11 Mar 11 6:26 PM
This would be interesting to find out what Damag3d said. "It could be that records take time to get updated"
My understanding is if your rehabilitation as ended say March 10th 2014 and you apply for a job in that month that has only a basic check and it comes back with your convictions still on there would that be unfair if that person was dismissed even though he as done the right thing not disclosing his conviction.
If this is the case it takes time for your conviction to be filtered down how long is that period before it happens.
We all accept our crimes but should we be punished more for it?
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
An update on this:
As part of my sentence was a compensation order this will result in the conviction remaining unspent in the eyes of Disclosure Scotland unless you provide proof of full payment. This is a new condition since the new disclosure periods were introduced on 10 March 2014. Their blurb is pasted below and the link provided.
This means that:
1. Although legally spent unless you prove full payment in their view you are not spent and never will be
2. You can legally declare you have no unspent convictions but the official document will say otherwise - try arguing against that, and at the very least your conviction is then exposed when it shouldn't have been
3. The burden of proof is on the requester, not Disclosure Scotland. I am not sure this is based on legislation or it's just their way out of a poor business process
4. Even if all other parts of the disposal indicate a spent conviction they will issue a certificate showing the conviction as unspent as a default
5. Disclosure Scotland insist "In England & Wales, you can obtain a letter of confirmation from the court when any compensation order has been paid in full." This is not true. I contacted the court I was sentenced at and they said "We cannot provide proof of payment of the compensation at the crown court. The crown court does not deal with takings of the money"
In summary if you have a compensation order component and cannot prove you've paid your conviction will never become spent in the opinion of Dislcosure Scotland. Legally you are spent but the only official body who can confirm that will say the opposite.
To the people of Scotland: please vote yes to independence in September!
From: www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/basicdisclosureonline/index.htm
Compensation Orders
You should read this section if you have been convicted of an offence since 10 March 2009 and your sentence includes a compensation order.
If you consider any conviction ‘spent’ under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 because you have paid any compensation order included in your sentence then you need to provide evidence to that effect to Disclosure Scotland when applying for a Basic Disclosure. In England & Wales, you can obtain a letter of confirmation from the court when any compensation order has been paid in full. A copy of that letter should be provided to Disclosure Scotland either with your application or separately in confidence if your application is being submitted via a third party. You do not need to discuss any separate submission with any third party. To submit proof of payment independently of submitting an application please click here. You should quote your application barcode or reference number, or your name, current address, and date of birth in your communication.
In Scotland the rehabilitation period for a compensation order is five years from the date of conviction and no proof of payment requires to be submitted.
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By The Stig - 11 Mar 11 6:26 PM
I am little confused here. I am not sure what your sentence was aim but has I work it out you was given a compensation order by the court and you did not pay that compensation order at the time of sentence. So they are holding that against you and it will not be spent on a basic check so it will always show up. Some how that seems a little harsh to me.
We all accept our crimes but should we be punished more for it?
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By AW83 - 20 Mar 13 10:15 AM
Well thats bull so for me I was fined £200.00 pretty sure it was just a fine for the courts "inconvenience" I didnt pay mine until January so thats does that mean I maybe in the same situation.
Thats a massive loophole aim and really Unlock will have bust some balls on that one.
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By james - 16 Apr 13 4:01 PM
Hmmm
Tricky one this. I got a suspended sentence and was also ordered to pay court costs plus a victim surcharge amounting to £200.
Is this compensation?
I also paid mine about 3 weeks after date of conviction.
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
A compensation order isn't the same as a fine. It's payable to the victim of your crime rather than the state.
According to LASPO it's spent as soon as you pay it: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/10/section/139
"A compensation order - End of rehabilitation period for adult offenders: The date on which the payment is made in full"
My compensation order was part of my sentence which also included a community order.
I paid the compensation order within the six month window is was given by the judge. The issue here is that Disclosure Scotland want proof of that payment. The court does not hold that information.
A compensation order is not the same as court costs or a fine. I don't know if victim surcharge is a compensation order. This is the problem. Some people don't remember what they were given or whether it is a compensation order or not.
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By james - 16 Apr 13 4:01 PM
Thanks for the info! Given me something to look into and contact people about.
Feel for you aim. Hope you get it sorted soon which I'm sure you will.
James
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
In my case I found the London Collection and Compliance Centre have proof of payment being made.
So I don't know what the procedure is for the rest of the UK.
The point is the burden should be on Disclosure Scotland to find this out. They are issuing certificates showing unspent convictions when they are spent and providing incorrect guidance which they insist is followed (i.e. the sentencing court keeps a record). You can't win as you need them to issue the certificate. All while supposedly being protected by the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.
I have to pay Disclosure Scotland again to reissue the certificate. I am not sure whether I have to provide payment proof each time or if they update their systems. Considering their feckless approach so far I'll err on the side of they won't update their records.
Isn't it about time the DBS provided basic disclosure for England and Wales?
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By james - 16 Apr 13 4:01 PM
Yes it is.
I was very surprised when I found out that Disclosure Scotland were going to continue doing the basics despite an independence referendum around the corner (although unlikely to become independent but still!)
I'll try and contact them on Monday.
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By james - 16 Apr 13 4:01 PM
....And just found out I am in the same boat as you aim, victim surcharge does count as a compensation order. 
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
Ouch! I suspect there are many many people in the same situation. If you were convicted in the London area you should be ok contacting the London Collection and Compliance Centre /courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/courts/london-collection-and-compliance-centre
This has the potential of continuing to ruin lives as legally correct non-disclosures will be seen as lies by employers due to Disclosure Scotland issuing incorrect information. They need to be stopped!!
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By james - 16 Apr 13 4:01 PM
Not London unfortunately! I am optimistic however that I can easily find record of the payment somewhere!
Agreed. I'll give 'em a call Monday/Tuesday to tell them/seek advice. Perhaps you and others may want to do the same?
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
I have exchanged many emails with Disclosure Scotland on this. For example:
Me: "So to confirm my conviction will never be spent until proof of payment for the compensation order component is provided to Disclosure Scotland? Furthermore if proof is provided I have to pay for a new application?"
DS: "Yes that is correct. The guidance is on the website explain how to provide proof when applying."
And also this:
"We have numerous cases where people have applied from England and provided us with proof of payment who live in England.
You can get in touch with the courts for proof of payment, a receipt from paying it or if you paid it via bank it will be on a statement.
This is the guidance in which we follow. Unless you can provide proof of payment then this will be going out on your disclosure."
I've been in discussions with Chris Stacey on how to approach this.
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
I provided proof of payment of my compensation order and applied for a basic disclosure. The certificate came back with "The applicant has no convictions for disclosure"
I have confirmation from Disclosure Scotland that they keep a record of proof of payment so it is not required for each submission.
I am tempted to request another certificate to test whether they do indeed keep a record.
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
Hi Stig,
This does raise an interesting point. All the blurb points to the Police Act s112 which allows them to issue the certificate. The contents are determined by the ROA 1974. Then this must apply to convictions only. If notification requirements are separate from the conviction itself for the determination of spent or not then it should not appear on a basic certificate. (Moderated - ......................). It just had the legal blurb followed by a Convictions section with "The applicant has no convictions for disclosure". Clearly if you state no convictions and the check comes back (Moderated ........................) then anyone looking at the certificate will know there must have been a conviction even if it isn't shown.Post Edited By Moderator (Moderator) : 06/06/2014 12:00:01 (GMT+2)
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
The ROA states www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/53/section/4:
Effect of rehabilitation.
(1)Subject to sections 7 and 8 below, a person who has become a rehabilitated person for the purposes of this Act in respect of a conviction shall be treated for all purposes in law as a person who has not committed or been charged with or prosecuted for or convicted of or sentenced for the offence or offences which were the subject of that conviction; and, notwithstanding the provisions of any other enactment or rule of law to the contrary, but subject as aforesaid—
(a)no evidence shall be admissible in any proceedings before a judicial authority exercising its jurisdiction or functions in Great Britain to prove that any such person has committed or been charged with or prosecuted for or convicted of or sentenced for any offence which was the subject of a spent conviction; and
(b)a person shall not, in any such proceedings, be asked, and, if asked, shall not be required to answer, any question relating to his past which cannot be answered without acknowledging or referring to a spent conviction or spent convictions or any circumstances ancillary thereto.
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By Mirrorman - 20 Jun 12 9:03 PM
Does that Notification come up for everyone or just people who were once subject to the act?
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By Aspire - 15 May 11 2:23 PM
Dear AIM,
Hope you are well. A massive thank you for highlighting the Comp Order issue... that could have scuppered my employment prospects and caused a lot of embarrassment and subsequent explanation. I am one of those that were delighted I could get a clear Basic Disclosure following the ROA amends as I was 'spent' years ago but would have had to wait a few more years with the 5 year Scottish rule.
I have now applied for my own check and will submit 'evidence' that I paid in full on the day of sentence via the link you kindly emailed here just to see if they 'marry' up the two. They told me I only have to submit once. I would certainly recommend you get a clean Basic Disclosure again yourself just in case there is any mix up in future so that you can state that your cert is wrong and show the clean one until sorted. Like you, I am slightly cynical about their capability to match up 'factual evidence' with forms submitted.
Will let you know how I get on and see if it comes back clean as it should do!
Aspire
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By Victor H - 15 Dec 13 7:37 PM
The Stig:
Moderated ...............................
Regardless as nicely put by nice try, the ROA and spent and not and cautions etc it really means nothing if employers and other companies such as dbs ( UK government) are counter working against the ROA Law by allowing illegal (criminal) checks to take place on a daily basis.
Still it does not surprise me considering Metropolitan police officers leak Criminal records to everyone as shown here:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2621016/Met-shame-officers-leak-data-force-computer-criminals-300-uniform-civilian-staff-caught-abusing-system.html
And then the officers were simply sacked or resigned before being prosecuted.... or worse rehired later onPost Edited By Moderator (Moderator) : 06/06/2014 12:05:36 (GMT+2)
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By Christopher Stacey - 18 Jun 08 1:26 PM
Dear All,
Just to give you an update on this, we've received a lot of evidence about a number of practical issues with the way that the ROA is working in practice, and in terms of basic disclosures. We'll be putting together an advice update in the next week or so, giving some clarity around compensation orders and other orders given at court. We'll also be suggesting that people send off for their own basic disclosure, to check their own records to make sure that Disclosure Scotland is processing them accurately.
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
hi Aspire. Good to hear from you. I hope you're ok. I've finally removed the conviction from my basic disclosure so doing a lot better.
I have received a clean disclosure after submitting compensation order evidence.
I have just submitted another request but without providing compensation order evidence to test if they do indeed keep a record and consider the conviction spent. This one should come back clean too.
£75 it's cost me to test their systems. I should invoice them!!
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By The Stig - 11 Mar 11 6:26 PM
Damag3d said...
First I have heard of this but this is terrible news indeed
It could be that records take time to get updated I have long suspected some bloke in I.T tapping away with his keyboard simply pressing the delete button on some guys criminal conviction. The issue being is no one knows the exact process and who exactly is doing the updating, I also reckon someone does know this guy and department and has his number but it may be that its just a process of updating each record to comply with law etc
Perhaps unlock can advise here on any way to get this updated quicker?
That complaints email you said is invalid so one has to dig further I would also suggest writing a complaint headed letter (recorded delivery) to scotland disclosure since they hold information regarding you which is incorrect and illegal by law and demand the information be updated or altered to comply with law. Someone has to do something at that point as in someone who knows something.
Remember you may be an ex-offender but everyone is a criminal in this world and just like yourself you can use the law against them.
Moderated .............Post Edited By Moderator (Moderator) : 06/06/2014 12:07:29 (GMT+2)
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By Victor H - 15 Dec 13 7:37 PM
The Stig:
It does sound like its going off the old system, was not even aware basic disclosures were mentioning that much detail all that for a basic job stacking baked beans or working in a shop or office, complete madness that is uk.
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By topperharley - 23 Feb 12 11:34 AM
For those worrying about the contents of the basic disclosure, the guidance is here:
www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/disclosureinformation/whatisadisclosure.htm
It clearly indicates what is on the basic disclosure, Moderated ....Post Edited By Moderator (Moderator) : 06/06/2014 12:08:16 (GMT+2)
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By AJW83 - 19 May 14 2:03 PM
topperharley said...For those worrying about the contents of the basic disclosure, the guidance is here: www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/disclosureinformation/whatisadisclosure.htmIt clearly indicates what is on the basic disclosure, Moderated ..............] You sir are gent you made my day can get on with my life next year then Post Edited By Moderator (Moderator) : 06/06/2014 12:08:40 (GMT+2)
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By aim - 8 Oct 10 11:54 AM
Here's the result of my Disclosure Scotland experiment. 1 to 3 were carried out sequentially.
1. Application WITHOUT proof of payment for compensation order = spent conviction disclosed
2. Application WITH proof of payment for compensation order = spent conviction NOT disclosed
3. Application WITHOUT proof of payment for compensation order = spent conviction NOT disclosed
So once you provide proof of payment they do keep that on their system.
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By Victor H - 15 Dec 13 7:37 PM
thanks aim for the confirmation at least some hope to others that read this thread.
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By Livingproof - 19 Jul 14 4:43 PM
Hi, this thread has spooked me! You see I have been offered a great new job and the employer is carrying out a basic disclosure check via Disclosure Scotland. I have one conviction with a community service order which is now spent under recent changes to ROA. The thing is, I can't remember if I was handed a compensation order!... I remember paying some money to the court on the day of sentencing, which I think was a fine and probably costs.
I requested a basic disclosure myself (just to check the changes) and this was issued on 22/04/2014. It just said 'the applicant has no convictions for disclosure - End of disclosure'.
Is this compensation order thing a new rule change? Will it affect future disclosures? If I did have a compensation order would it have shown up on the April check?
Really worried - I've already quit my old job thinking basic disclosure would be fine.
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By Victor H - 15 Dec 13 7:37 PM
Livingproof said...
Hi, this thread has spooked me! You see I have been offered a great new job and the employer is carrying out a basic disclosure check via Disclosure Scotland. I have one conviction with a community service order which is now spent under recent changes to ROA. The thing is, I can't remember if I was handed a compensation order!... I remember paying some money to the court on the day of sentencing, which I think was a fine and probably costs.
I requested a basic disclosure myself (just to check the changes) and this was issued on 22/04/2014. It just said 'the applicant has no convictions for disclosure - End of disclosure'.
Is this compensation order thing a new rule change? Will it affect future disclosures? If I did have a compensation order would it have shown up on the April check?
Really worried - I've already quit my old job thinking basic disclosure would be fine.
Got no choice but just to crack on with things and not worry, if the current basic check says nothing then it should in theory stay that way unless you re-offended or lived as I put it 
I would not do anything in haste but if it comes it comes then deal with it.
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