By BenS - 17 Sep 18 10:32 AM
+x[quote]
Only UK passport control can see that you are subject to travel notifications, and not even see why (you might be a football hooligan, or a spy). Other passport control in other countries can't see anything about your record unless you have been flagged on interpol. You won't be flagged on interpol unless your crimes specifically involve travelling abroad to commit crimes or you've otherwise given police a reason to suspect you. Or if you've not declared your travel in advance properly.
Maybe it's only the UK passport control who can see specifically that you are subject to travel notifications, but if you're on the SOR and have notified foreign travel to an EU country (plus a few non-EU western European countries), then your passport will "flag" at the border control of any of those countries because your details will have been entered on SISII (Schengen Information System II). Even if they can't see the exact reason for the flag on your passport, they will receive a notification that you are being monitored in some way and they are instructed to ask you a few basic questions discreetly (in reality, it is not always discreet, as staff at some (mainly smaller) airports are unfamiliar with the procedure).
Changing your passport will not remove a flag, because the flag does not relate to your passport, but rather to your personal details such as name and date of birth. So scanning your passport will result in a match for someone with your exact name and date of birth who requires extra attention at passport control.
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By Harmless - 17 Sep 18 4:20 PM
+x+x[quote]
Only UK passport control can see that you are subject to travel notifications, and not even see why (you might be a football hooligan, or a spy). Other passport control in other countries can't see anything about your record unless you have been flagged on interpol. You won't be flagged on interpol unless your crimes specifically involve travelling abroad to commit crimes or you've otherwise given police a reason to suspect you. Or if you've not declared your travel in advance properly.
Maybe it's only the UK passport control who can see specifically that you are subject to travel notifications, but if you're on the SOR and have notified foreign travel to an EU country (plus a few non-EU western European countries), then your passport will "flag" at the border control of any of those countries because your details will have been entered on SISII (Schengen Information System II). Even if they can't see the exact reason for the flag on your passport, they will receive a notification that you are being monitored on some way and they are instructed to ask you a few basic questions discreetly (in reality, it is not always discreet, as staff at some (mainly smaller) airports are unfamiliar with the procedure). Changing your passport will not remove a flag, because the flag does not relate to your passport, but rather to your personal details such as name and date of birth. So scanning your passport will result in a match for someone with your exact name and date of birth who requires extra attention at passport control.
True, but from what Monkos has said here (and I don't know if he' right but sounds well researched), the authorities won't put up an interpol Green Notice(the type they use for the USA) unless they suspect you're going abroad in order to do evil. And even if they're going to put up a notice, they'll tell you in advance rather than let you waste a ticket.
That said, they almost certainly did put up an SISII notice for me in Germany, given how long it took the border staff to stare at their screen. And I'm guessing the cops didn't think I was up to no good there. Although I don't think Monkos was talking about this.
After Brexit won't the Shengen info exchange thing be gone? Isn't that a good thing? Or would they abandon discretion and default to Green Notice always?
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By Harmless - 17 Sep 18 4:25 PM
+xChanging your passport will not remove a flag, because the flag does not relate to your passport, but rather to your personal details such as name and date of birth. So scanning your passport will result in a match for someone with your exact name and date of birth who requires extra attention at passport control.
What's your source on that?
I recently changed the spelling of my name, dropping an entire middle name (and informed the cops), but my passport bears my old name. But I've never travelled since the name change.
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By Zack - 17 Sep 18 8:39 PM
+x+x[quote]
Only UK passport control can see that you are subject to travel notifications, and not even see why (you might be a football hooligan, or a spy). Other passport control in other countries can't see anything about your record unless you have been flagged on interpol. You won't be flagged on interpol unless your crimes specifically involve travelling abroad to commit crimes or you've otherwise given police a reason to suspect you. Or if you've not declared your travel in advance properly.
Maybe it's only the UK passport control who can see specifically that you are subject to travel notifications, but if you're on the SOR and have notified foreign travel to an EU country (plus a few non-EU western European countries), then your passport will "flag" at the border control of any of those countries because your details will have been entered on SISII (Schengen Information System II). Even if they can't see the exact reason for the flag on your passport, they will receive a notification that you are being monitored in some way and they are instructed to ask you a few basic questions discreetly (in reality, it is not always discreet, as staff at some (mainly smaller) airports are unfamiliar with the procedure). Changing your passport will not remove a flag, because the flag does not relate to your passport, but rather to your personal details such as name and date of birth. So scanning your passport will result in a match for someone with your exact name and date of birth who requires extra attention at passport control.
I'd assumed that SISII just used a match on passport number (hence the requirement to register any new passport). But you're saying when they enter the passport number that it searches for anyone with same name and date of birth, curious how you found that out?
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By Monkos - 17 Sep 18 9:16 PM
+x+x+x[quote]
Only UK passport control can see that you are subject to travel notifications, and not even see why (you might be a football hooligan, or a spy). Other passport control in other countries can't see anything about your record unless you have been flagged on interpol. You won't be flagged on interpol unless your crimes specifically involve travelling abroad to commit crimes or you've otherwise given police a reason to suspect you. Or if you've not declared your travel in advance properly.
Maybe it's only the UK passport control who can see specifically that you are subject to travel notifications, but if you're on the SOR and have notified foreign travel to an EU country (plus a few non-EU western European countries), then your passport will "flag" at the border control of any of those countries because your details will have been entered on SISII (Schengen Information System II). Even if they can't see the exact reason for the flag on your passport, they will receive a notification that you are being monitored in some way and they are instructed to ask you a few basic questions discreetly (in reality, it is not always discreet, as staff at some (mainly smaller) airports are unfamiliar with the procedure). Changing your passport will not remove a flag, because the flag does not relate to your passport, but rather to your personal details such as name and date of birth. So scanning your passport will result in a match for someone with your exact name and date of birth who requires extra attention at passport control. I'd assumed that SISII just used a match on passport number (hence the requirement to register any new passport). But you're saying when they enter the passport number that it searches for anyone with same name and date of birth, curious how you found that out?
I think it's fare to assume if you get a brand new passport, that at least in the UK system there will be a history of previous passport numbers it's connected to. Similarly if you have same name and DOB as people on a watch list, you'd likely get flagged. After all, you hear all the time about people with muslim type names being stopped simply for having some details matching people on watch lists.
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By AB2014 - 25 Sep 18 11:38 AM
+x+x+xI don't have a factual source on what I said about the SISII running by name matches rather than passport numbers. I "learnt" this from another user on here, who asserted this. So it's not gospel, but I would tend to agree with it - otherwise any RSO could simply get a new passport and not report it, then travel freely undetected. It can't be that easy. So it would make sense that it's your name and DOB on the system and not just your passport number. Monkos's example shows this perfectly: people with Arabic names being stopped due to sharing a name with someone on a watchlist. Obviously these innocent trravellers won't have the same passport number as the people on the watchlist but they still flag up - reason: name. But obviously this is all speculation. The information regarding SISII can be hound at https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32007D0533 The information stored in the database is: 3. The information on persons in relation to whom an alert has been issued shall be no more than the following: (a) | surname(s) and forename(s), name(s) at birth and previously used names and any aliases which may be entered separately; |
(b) | any specific, objective, physical characteristics not subject to change; |
(c) | place and date of birth; |
(h) | whether the person concerned is armed, violent or has escaped; |
(j) | authority issuing the alert; |
(k) | a reference to the decision giving rise to the alert; |
(m) | link(s) to other alerts issued in SIS II pursuant to Article 52; |
Details on accessing what SISII alerts are on the UK system for you can be requested (see https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/421540/SISII_General_Information_document.pdf), and you can request disclosure from each member country individually. Regarding the ability to see SISII information on yourself, the information in that document (and others) and the link simply go to the ACRO website for doing a subject access request on yourself. I.e. a complete extract of your criminal record (spent and unspent). I already have one of these on myself so I know what it looks like - but this surely is different from what is seen on SISII? When you do an ACRO request, you can't see anything specifically relating to SISII, like reasons for an alert, etc. It just goes around in circles and ends up with the ACRO SAR. So I'm not sure if there is actually any way of seeing what SISII has on you. Or do you specify in the request that you are expressly looking to view your SISII details rather than your general criminal record?
I would expect the SISII information to be a mixture of what ACRO tells you and information held locally, equivalent to the approved information disclosed on an enhanced DBS check. If you apply for copies of both sets of information, that should cover it. As with enhanced DBS checks, I doubt that the police would add any information that is not held either on the PNC or in local files.
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By Harmless - 15 Sep 18 11:53 PM
Scenario 1.
I'm in the UK on the SOR.
- On day one, I receive a replacement passport. That same day I declare to police that I'm leaving the country tomorrow
- On day two, I leave.
While I am abroad, the clock is paused on my 3-day obligation to report the new passport, has it not?
And the passport is clean everywhere...
Scenario 2.
I'm abroad, e.g. France
- I order a replacement passport while abroad.
While I am abroad, the clock is paused on my obligation to report the passport, has it not?
And the passport is clean everywhere...
Scenario 3.
Exactly the same as 2, but Gibraltar, and I there order the replacement passport from the office there, while still out from under the SOR registration requirements?
Until I return to the UK the passport is clean is it not?
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By BenS - 18 Sep 18 8:38 AM
I don't have a factual source on what I said about the SISII running by name matches rather than passport numbers. I "learnt" this from another user on here, who asserted this. So it's not gospel, but I would tend to agree with it - otherwise any RSO could simply get a new passport and not report it, then travel freely undetected. It can't be that easy. So it would make sense that it's your name and DOB on the system and not just your passport number. Monkos's example shows this perfectly: people with Arabic names being stopped due to sharing a name with someone on a watchlist. Obviously these innocent trravellers won't have the same passport number as the people on the watchlist but they still flag up - reason: name.
But obviously this is all speculation.
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By Harmless - 18 Sep 18 8:54 AM
+xI don't have a factual source on what I said about the SISII running by name matches rather than passport numbers. I "learnt" this from another use on here, who asserted this. So it's not gospel, but I would tend to agree with it - otherwise any RSO could simply get a new passport and not report it, then travel freely undetected. It can't be that easy. So it would make sense that it's your name and DOB on the system and not just your passport number. Monkos's example shows this perfectly: people with Arabic names being stopped due to sharing a name with someone on a watchlist. Obviously these innocent trravellers won't have the same passport number as the people on the watchlist but they still flag up - reason: name. But obviously this is all speculation.
I know an RSO who face to face claimed he just went to Germany undeclared (but using his declared passport) to "see what happened" (his life is so ruined he's just having fun with it now).
Nothing happened, he said.
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By BenS - 18 Sep 18 10:06 AM
+xI know an RSO who face to face claimed he just went to Germany undeclared (but using his declared passport) to "see what happened" (his life is so ruined he's just having fun with it now). Nothing happened, he said.
If he only "just" went to Germany, it might take a while for the Border Force's entry information to be sent to his PPU ...
There is an RSO (more than downloading, served several years in prison) who went to the US on holiday without notifying. He got into the US no problem by ticking "no" on an ESTA, but was arrested on return once the PPU got the information about his arrival from UK Border Force. He was sent back to prison. The story can be found online but I'm not sure I should link it as we all feel the same way about privacy and the Google effect.
As an aside, this would suggest that unless you tell the US about your conviction, you're very unlikely to have a problem when travelling on an ESTA, but it would be best to wait until you no longer to notify under the SOR.
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By Harmless - 18 Sep 18 11:44 AM
+x+xI know an RSO who face to face claimed he just went to Germany undeclared (but using his declared passport) to "see what happened" (his life is so ruined he's just having fun with it now). Nothing happened, he said. If he only "just" went to Germany, it might take a while for the Border Force's entry information to be sent to his PPU ... There is an RSO (more than downloading, served several years in prison) who went to the US on holiday without notifying. He got into the US no problem by ticking "no" on an ESTA, but was arrested on return once the PPU got the information about his arrival from UK Border Force. He was sent back to prison. The story can be found online but I'm not sure I should link it as we all feel the same way about privacy and the Google effect. As an aside, this would suggest that unless you tell the US about your conviction, you're very unlikely to have a problem when travelling on an ESTA, but it would be best to wait until you no longer to notify under the SOR.
He long ago (maybe 3/4 years ago) went (only\just) to Germany. and then back, with no ill consequences for himself.
Moreover he did it for our benefit! To try and elucidate the actual mechanisms involved and provide us with a data point.
So we him one I guess!
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By Yankee - 18 Sep 18 12:11 PM
+xI don't have a factual source on what I said about the SISII running by name matches rather than passport numbers. I "learnt" this from another user on here, who asserted this. So it's not gospel, but I would tend to agree with it - otherwise any RSO could simply get a new passport and not report it, then travel freely undetected. It can't be that easy. So it would make sense that it's your name and DOB on the system and not just your passport number. Monkos's example shows this perfectly: people with Arabic names being stopped due to sharing a name with someone on a watchlist. Obviously these innocent trravellers won't have the same passport number as the people on the watchlist but they still flag up - reason: name. But obviously this is all speculation.
The UK Passport Office system has a marker field that can be flagged by the PPU (as does the DVLA) so that they are notified automatically of any 'activity' such as ordering a new passport or changing a name. I don't know whether this marker is set for every RSO or only those where the PPU assess there is a risk of name change (in one of the police documents I read it discussed risk factors such as a job that required overseas travel, other convictions that had a fraud element,....)
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By Square - 23 Sep 18 8:31 AM
+xI don't have a factual source on what I said about the SISII running by name matches rather than passport numbers. I "learnt" this from another user on here, who asserted this. So it's not gospel, but I would tend to agree with it - otherwise any RSO could simply get a new passport and not report it, then travel freely undetected. It can't be that easy. So it would make sense that it's your name and DOB on the system and not just your passport number. Monkos's example shows this perfectly: people with Arabic names being stopped due to sharing a name with someone on a watchlist. Obviously these innocent trravellers won't have the same passport number as the people on the watchlist but they still flag up - reason: name. But obviously this is all speculation.
The information regarding SISII can be hound at https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32007D0533
The information stored in the database is:
3. The information on persons in relation to whom an alert has been issued shall be no more than the following: (a) | surname(s) and forename(s), name(s) at birth and previously used names and any aliases which may be entered separately; |
(b) | any specific, objective, physical characteristics not subject to change; |
(c) | place and date of birth; |
(h) | whether the person concerned is armed, violent or has escaped; |
(j) | authority issuing the alert; |
(k) | a reference to the decision giving rise to the alert; |
(m) | link(s) to other alerts issued in SIS II pursuant to Article 52; |
Details on accessing what SISII alerts are on the UK system for you can be requested (see https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/421540/SISII_General_Information_document.pdf), and you can request disclosure from each member country individually.
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By BenS - 24 Sep 18 7:58 AM
+x+xI don't have a factual source on what I said about the SISII running by name matches rather than passport numbers. I "learnt" this from another user on here, who asserted this. So it's not gospel, but I would tend to agree with it - otherwise any RSO could simply get a new passport and not report it, then travel freely undetected. It can't be that easy. So it would make sense that it's your name and DOB on the system and not just your passport number. Monkos's example shows this perfectly: people with Arabic names being stopped due to sharing a name with someone on a watchlist. Obviously these innocent trravellers won't have the same passport number as the people on the watchlist but they still flag up - reason: name. But obviously this is all speculation. The information regarding SISII can be hound at https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32007D0533 The information stored in the database is: 3. The information on persons in relation to whom an alert has been issued shall be no more than the following: (a) | surname(s) and forename(s), name(s) at birth and previously used names and any aliases which may be entered separately; |
(b) | any specific, objective, physical characteristics not subject to change; |
(c) | place and date of birth; |
(h) | whether the person concerned is armed, violent or has escaped; |
(j) | authority issuing the alert; |
(k) | a reference to the decision giving rise to the alert; |
(m) | link(s) to other alerts issued in SIS II pursuant to Article 52; |
Details on accessing what SISII alerts are on the UK system for you can be requested (see https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/421540/SISII_General_Information_document.pdf), and you can request disclosure from each member country individually.
Regarding the ability to see SISII information on yourself, the information in that document (and others) and the link simply go to the ACRO website for doing a subject access request on yourself. I.e. a complete extract of your criminal record (spent and unspent). I already have one of these on myself so I know what it looks like - but this surely is different from what is seen on SISII? When you do an ACRO request, you can't see anything specifically relating to SISII, like reasons for an alert, etc. It just goes around in circles and ends up with the ACRO SAR. So I'm not sure if there is actually any way of seeing what SISII has on you.
Or do you specify in the request that you are expressly looking to view your SISII details rather than your general criminal record?
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