By sainted - 15 Jul 23 5:21 PM
punter99
Nearest magistrates is about 30 miles south(!) They've closed all the local magistrates to me.
xDanx
Yep, no SHPO right now but the fact that they mentioned it in the SOR refusal makes me think it's in the offing.
GRC, yes the "why" was my thought too. I notified them at all stages of my transition, from name change, to change of all official documents, even in advance when I was away for surgery. Complied over and above what Notifications are required.
Basically it does seem refusing a polygraph and using a computer are what they consider reason enough. Hopefully they don't go through with it, but I don't trust any of these bastards any longer.
Sentence was an indefinite SOR via sentence of 4yrs.
Got a phone conversation with a solicitor on Monday morning.
Thanks both
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By punter99 - 15 Jul 23 8:27 PM
+xpunter99 Nearest magistrates is about 30 miles south(!) They've closed all the local magistrates to me. xDanx Yep, no SHPO right now but the fact that they mentioned it in the SOR refusal makes me think it's in the offing. GRC, yes the "why" was my thought too. I notified them at all stages of my transition, from name change, to change of all official documents, even in advance when I was away for surgery. Complied over and above what Notifications are required. Basically it does seem refusing a polygraph and using a computer are what they consider reason enough. Hopefully they don't go through with it, but I don't trust any of these bastards any longer. Sentence was an indefinite SOR via sentence of 4yrs. Got a phone conversation with a solicitor on Monday morning. Thanks both
These days, courts allow video or phone hearings, so travel can be avoided
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By sainted - 17 Jul 23 6:42 PM
Brief update
Had a phone convo this morning with one of the two sols I contacted.
I don't know if he was "anti" or being brutally honest, but he just said the magistrates usually sided with the police on SOR appeals (in Bedfordshire)** and that he didn't think there would be much hope of success in light that not much has changed for me to demonstrate the risk has lowered. Additionally, he asked if I could "compromise with plod by agreeing to the polygraph" (!)
So, basically got nowhere sadly. Looks like SHPO incoming...
** I looked at a recent FOI of forces where SOR appeals have been allowed/refused and Bedfordshire hasn't got a great record of allowing them.
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By Lineofduty - 18 Jul 23 12:30 PM
+x[quote]
The visit is a risk assessment, not just to verify your address. There should be notes made for their records of what the risk factors are and what is being done to manage those risks. So it is an interview. You are not obliged to say anything though. They could be making a recording, although that would have to be stored somewhere and it would be accessible through a SAR request.
Sainted....
The risk assessment should balance your risk (factors) against your protective factors (your good stuff/positive changes etc). I always ask fora copy of their Notes and Risk Assessment. After 4 years I found through a SAR the absolute slanted, distorted rubbish they had put.
What they hadn't done was to include any of my significant positive changes. The case manager was removed after i complained and I can tell the new guy hasn't either so I asked for his Notes from the last 2 visits. The request has been refused on the basis I'm made too many requests in 6 months. I know he has blocked it because I saw his face when asked if he's used my protective factors in his Notes and Risk Ass.
You see, they'll do anything until they are found out and then they close ranks. I have less than 2 years left on my SHPO and I have them on the run. They don't like it up 'em especially from sex offenders.
Stick up for yourself and stick to your guns!
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By Mr W - 18 Jul 23 2:01 PM
I agree, stick to your guns.
I'm surprised to hear a legal rep being 'pro polygraph', my opinion counts for nothing, but you're absolutely right to turn it down. It's a slippery slope to having to 'prove innocence' and they'd jump all over any 'blips' or whatever happens.
The more stories I hear, the more I think visits should have a legal rep present (or at least on the phone/video call, for ease) as there are instances when the police cannot be trusted.
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By sainted - 18 Jul 23 4:15 PM
Lineofduty
I don't know what my protective factors are, and there isn't really anything that's changed from conviction 17 years ago and now, other than my gender change. Just bizarre that they even asked for my GRC, as they knew in advance the surgery I was having and when, and for them to make this a condition is just utterly bizarre. A simple examination, or even sight of the surgeon's letter would have addressed any doubt they might have had.
Quite how my Gender Recognition Certificate would have been an "indicator to assist in determining [my] risk to children" is mind-boggling and I cannot comprehend the mental gymnastics they've had to try to make it fit.
It's unfair for them to say I haven't complied with their demand for a GRC - it's not because I'm refusing to hand it over, but that I've never applied for one - in the 2021 census it was noted there are circa 250,000 trans folk in the UK yet only 5,000 GRCs have been issued (due to £140 cost, the panel sits twice a year, never meets you, and is quite vague on the proofs it requires, so most don't bother applying) (This is the Gender Reform we've been asking for for so long).
So I'm penalised for not being able to comply, rather than not complying.
Interesting that one of their reasons is because I use "forums" while neglecting to take into account that the only forum I ever mentioned to them was a tank game, which I haven't been on for over 3 years, and a flight simulator forum which a) is full of grouchy old men and b) I rarely post on it, merely accessing it to update purchases from its store.
But yeh, these bastards will always twist things to suit.
Been talking to my Mum about this, and come to the conclusion that no matter what hoops they put up, if you jump through them they'll just move the goalposts.
Mr W
Yup, as per my OP, I've never felt comfortable with what one of them is doing with that laptop but at least I now have confirmation from an earlier post about the college of policing that I don't have to answer any questions in these "interviews." That may well be my stance from now on, even if I can't undo this damned SOR.
Postscript
Attached their SOR refusal letter.
Second solicitor hasn't even responded so I guess it ends here.
An interesting end about polygraphs. While I was in prison in 2007 I got hold of a newspaper, and in it was an article about Professor Don Grubin and in particular his assertion that polygraphs were unreliable and could be fooled (see Ames). His further assertion was that MRI scanning was more reliable and should be used in place of polygraphs.
Skip forward to 2008/9 and polygraphs were rolled out nationally to Probation. Guess who got the role to head the programme?
Morals go out the window when the money's high enough.
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By Mr W - 18 Jul 23 7:06 PM
There are only 2 lines of substance in that whole ‘explanation’... Poly/certificate “to ascertain if there are any indicators to assist in determining her risk”
Let's break that down...
1. Nobody here has done a polygraph and we’re all allegedly assessed. 2. “If” - Oh joy, another 'what if' ... so equally, there’s doubt of any at all then? 3. “assist” - does that not infer that the current ‘system’ is insufficient then? 4. And a certificate proves……?
Second line: “There are more questions to be posed”
By the sounds of things, they’ve had enough time to ask, that's their fault.
The rest is waffle.
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By xDanx - 18 Jul 23 9:52 PM
+xLineofduty I don't know what my protective factors are, and there isn't really anything that's changed from conviction 17 years ago and now, other than my gender change. Just bizarre that they even asked for my GRC, as they knew in advance the surgery I was having and when, and for them to make this a condition is just utterly bizarre. A simple examination, or even sight of the surgeon's letter would have addressed any doubt they might have had. Quite how my Gender Recognition Certificate would have been an "indicator to assist in determining [my] risk to children" is mind-boggling and I cannot comprehend the mental gymnastics they've had to try to make it fit. It's unfair for them to say I haven't complied with their demand for a GRC - it's not because I'm refusing to hand it over, but that I've never applied for one - in the 2021 census it was noted there are circa 250,000 trans folk in the UK yet only 5,000 GRCs have been issued (due to £140 cost, the panel sits twice a year, never meets you, and is quite vague on the proofs it requires, so most don't bother applying) (This is the Gender Reform we've been asking for for so long). So I'm penalised for not being able to comply, rather than not complying. Interesting that one of their reasons is because I use "forums" while neglecting to take into account that the only forum I ever mentioned to them was a tank game, which I haven't been on for over 3 years, and a flight simulator forum which a) is full of grouchy old men and b) I rarely post on it, merely accessing it to update purchases from its store. But yeh, these bastards will always twist things to suit. Been talking to my Mum about this, and come to the conclusion that no matter what hoops they put up, if you jump through them they'll just move the goalposts. Mr W Yup, as per my OP, I've never felt comfortable with what one of them is doing with that laptop but at least I now have confirmation from an earlier post about the college of policing that I don't have to answer any questions in these "interviews." That may well be my stance from now on, even if I can't undo this damned SOR. Postscript Attached their SOR refusal letter. Second solicitor hasn't even responded so I guess it ends here. An interesting end about polygraphs. While I was in prison in 2007 I got hold of a newspaper, and in it was an article about Professor Don Grubin and in particular his assertion that polygraphs were unreliable and could be fooled (see Ames). His further assertion was that MRI scanning was more reliable and should be used in place of polygraphs. Skip forward to 2008/9 and polygraphs were rolled out nationally to Probation. Guess who got the role to head the programme? Morals go out the window when the money's high enough.
Based on what was stated in the letter, If a SHPO is inbound then I would suspect monitoring software would be included, along with the typical contact restrictions (which would be disproportionate given your offence was image related) and not to intentionally delete internet history. I believe a recent change in the law now allows positive actions to be included in the SHPO, which would mean if they so choose too, could force you to do a polygraph along side any rehabilitation days.
The fact it has been 17 years and you were never given a SHPO or a SOPO, it would make no sense to impose one on to you now as they are usually only given out the day of sentencing. So a SHPO could be avoided but they are using the fact you were never given one as part of their reasons for declining your removal. If a SHPO is given, I will refer you to this link, I have studied it endlessly and continue to do so as part of my own applications for discharge http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2011/1772.html I would advise to keep searching for a decent solicitor and ask if Legal Aid is available if money is an issue.
Again, it has been 17 years and I would assume there has been no further offending nor any breaches of the SOR? So in your appeal, you could ask Police to provide evidence to the court of what risk you pose. If none can be produced (because they have none) then there will be no reason for the SOR to continue.
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By punter99 - 19 Jul 23 11:03 AM
Whilst the chances of success are slim, there is so much wrong with this process, that it really does need to be challenged. I guess that if you can live with another 8 years of visits, then not much will change, on a practical level, other than the monitoring of your internet use, which they could be doing anyway, even without an SHPO.
There are a couple of things which interest me, about this has been handled. How long have you had a computer for? Have they ever asked to check your devices before? Do you usually delete your browsing history, or do you keep it? Have they ever raised any issues about you using forums before? Have you always had the same VISOR officer? How long ago did you first mention to them that you were going to change gender and how long after that, was it, before they asked for a certificate? Before they asked you to take a polygraph, did they make it clear that your application to come off the SOR would be refused if you didn't take one? Did they ever make a formal request to you for a GRC? How long did they give you to provide one and did they explain what would happen if you did not provide one? Did you ever explain to them why you could not provide one? Did you provide your explanation in writing and did they respond to your explanation?
When they originally asked you if you wanted to come off the SOR, they should have given you an opportunity to provide evidence in support of your application. Did you do that. Did you identify any positive changes you have made in your life since the offence? The application form would have given you a list of all the things they can consider.
8. Reasons for applying for a review. Please state the reasons why you are making an application for a review of your indefinite notification requirements. You will need to demonstrate:• How your circumstances now, compared to those at the time of your offence, mean that you no longer pose a risk of reoffending; • The way you behave now, compared to your behaviour during earlier periods when you have been subject to the notification requirements, means that you no longer need to be subject to those requirements to manage the risk you pose.You should consider including information about:• Where you live, how long you have lived there, the stability of your living arrangements, who you live with, for how long you have lived in these circumstances;• Relationships with any children under 18;• How you fill your time e.g. employment, employer, for how long, hobbies and interests; Details of any health or support services with which you are currently engaged;• Completion of any treatment programmes relevant to your offending history;• Your attitude to your offending and how you make sure you will not offend again; • How other people (with information from them if you have it) consider that you do not pose a risk of reoffending;• Any other information that you consider demonstrates you no longer pose a risk of sexual harm.
Did you provide answers to all these?
The police case for refusal appears to rely on things that they only told you were going to be problematic, after your application had already been refused. In other words, risk factors that you were previously unaware of. So how could you possibly be expected to address a particular risk, when you didnt even know it was a risk?
There are good reasons here to make an official complaint to the police, about how the application was dealt with, even if you do not go ahead with an appeal.
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By sainted - 19 Jul 23 1:22 PM
punter99
To answer your questions, my first notification (post sentence) was in May 2008. I then moved to Bedfordshire at the end of 2009. I got a pc in early 2010 and have had once since. I only delete browsing history once in a while when McAffee deletes cookies and other stuff that slows the pc down. Police have never asked to check my pcs which are laptops, even though I have three - one for everyday use, one old xp machine for Sketchup (making things for flight sims) and a big gaming laptop for a flight sim.
I mentioned to them *once* about a tank game I played (Tanki) which was at times incredibly funny with some of the antics others got up to on it, and they asked if it had a forum. As the game and forum is Russian-owned there is a lot of abuse if they know you are female, trans or gay and I'm sure plod were told that's why I eventually left the forum and then the game.
No, I haven't had the same VISOR officer - I think I'm on the third or fourth one now.
How long ago did I start to change gender? I began in early 2014 and my "official start" was the name change in August 2015 so police would have been told then, if not earlier, as I would have had to nofify of the name change.
The first time they have asked for a certificate is now.
No, they just said the polygraph would "look good for my application."
No, they haven't made a formal request to me for a GRC, they said they didn't have one on their files (why would they?) and when I said no I never got one, they asked "can you get one?" to which I told them it would take over a year to get one, as I would need to source in-date letters from surgeon, doctor, gender clinic etc as everything I have is outside the 3-year limit for a GRC.
This was all done by text to them in reply to their initial text to me asking if I'd like to apply to come off SOR. I havn't kept these texts.
There was an online forum they sent me to apply to come off, and as there really hasn't been any "positive" changes in my life, all I could say was that I avoid people now, have no interest in relationships or work. That addressed most of the questions in that "reasons for applying" Did also state I attended SOTP under duress, and that I couldn't respond to attitude to offending when I had maintained my innocence from the outset.
So did address as much as I could.
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By punter99 - 19 Jul 23 3:41 PM
+xpunter99 To answer your questions, my first notification (post sentence) was in May 2008. I then moved to Bedfordshire at the end of 2009. I got a pc in early 2010 and have had once since. I only delete browsing history once in a while when McAffee deletes cookies and other stuff that slows the pc down. Police have never asked to check my pcs which are laptops, even though I have three - one for everyday use, one old xp machine for Sketchup (making things for flight sims) and a big gaming laptop for a flight sim. I mentioned to them *once* about a tank game I played (Tanki) which was at times incredibly funny with some of the antics others got up to on it, and they asked if it had a forum. As the game and forum is Russian-owned there is a lot of abuse if they know you are female, trans or gay and I'm sure plod were told that's why I eventually left the forum and then the game. No, I haven't had the same VISOR officer - I think I'm on the third or fourth one now. How long ago did I start to change gender? I began in early 2014 and my "official start" was the name change in August 2015 so police would have been told then, if not earlier, as I would have had to nofify of the name change. The first time they have asked for a certificate is now. No, they just said the polygraph would "look good for my application." No, they haven't made a formal request to me for a GRC, they said they didn't have one on their files (why would they?) and when I said no I never got one, they asked "can you get one?" to which I told them it would take over a year to get one, as I would need to source in-date letters from surgeon, doctor, gender clinic etc as everything I have is outside the 3-year limit for a GRC. This was all done by text to them in reply to their initial text to me asking if I'd like to apply to come off SOR. I havn't kept these texts. There was an online forum they sent me to apply to come off, and as there really hasn't been any "positive" changes in my life, all I could say was that I avoid people now, have no interest in relationships or work. That addressed most of the questions in that "reasons for applying" Did also state I attended SOTP under duress, and that I couldn't respond to attitude to offending when I had maintained my innocence from the outset. So did address as much as I could.
Well, first of all, your answers to the questions, about reasons for applying to come off the SOR probably didn't do you any favours. Whatever your feelings about your conviction, it's important to give the police a positive impression of your situation, otherwise they have no reason to ever remove you from the SOR.
That said, if they are only visiting once a year, they must think you are low risk. If you never breached your current restrictions, or received any warnings about your behaviour, then there is no reason for them to suddenly assume you would start offending now. If they were so worried about your online activity, then why did they never check on it?
If I were you, I would do a SAR, subject access request, and get all the information they have on you. If there is anything on there which is wrong, you can use that as proof that they have exaggerated your risk. The problem is that you only have a few days left for your appeal, if that's what you want to do. If you don't appeal, then at the very least complain about the way you have been treated.
As for the possibility of an SHPO, that might be just an empty threat, but there are things you can do to help yourself. Maybe install some internet monitoring software of your own, the kind that blocks access to porn sites etc. That will prove to a court that you are taking action to manage your own risk and don't need an SHPO.
I agree with Danx that you should look around for a solicitor who does legal aid, but alternatively you could go the Citizen's Advice Bureau for help. They can help you to put together a letter of complaint, or an appeal, or a defence, if the police apply for an SHPO. It's will be important that you get the wording right, if you are going to get anywhere. For a start, you might want to make a list of five positive things you have done, over the last 15 years. It doesn't need to be anything massively significant, just small steps you have taken to improve yourself.
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By sainted - 20 Jul 23 1:27 PM
Well, here's where I'm at. Citizens Advice don't have a consultation with a pet solicitor any longer, so now they just refer you to lawworks but the phone number for them is disconnected (0207 092 3940). Found their website but no way to speak to a human being there.
Getting nowhere finding a crim sol specialised enough to deal with taking this to a magistrates, even within Luton or Milton Keynes which are the two Magistrates I can apply to.
Thought I would try another approach and find out what form I need to "apply to the Magistrates Court" with. No answer from the phone numbers at either court.
Nor can I find out online what form I even need.
This sort of explains the smugness of police - they know it's practically impossible to appeal against their decision.
Pretty much end of the road.
edit:
Finally did get thru to MK Magistrates. There's no form. You need to "write in and we'll get advice off the legal team" which wasn't inspiring.
Rang the number for Single Justice Service Centre and spoke to a really helpful man who didn't have any information or forms he could refer me to but just said all he could find was instruction that appellants need to seek legal advice (which I'm unable to).
So he said in the absence of that I need to email the court stating I want to lodge an appeal so I've now sent an email to the address he provided, stating I want to lodge an appeal and with the police's refusal letter attached and asking for a hearing date and details of where/how to make payment.
Got an automated reply back saying they'll respond within 5 days or thereabouts. So appeal lodged, if it's in the wrong format or not acceptable in any way nothing more I can do.
edit 2
Got a reply back from Milton Keynes Magistrates Court. Who knew Milton Keynes wasn't in Bedfordshire? They forwarded my email to Luton Magistrates who replied asking for a copy of my letter and the police refusal, and my reasons for wanting to appeal, along with instructions for payment. Sent a reply giving:
- Their two primary reasons for refusing my decision was that I didn’t provide them with a Gender Recognition Certificate. This is a replacement Birth Certificate, and I am not in possession of a GRC due to not having applied for one so I believe they penalised for something I am unable to comply with. It is not as if I have one and am refusing to let them see it. And how is the possession of a Birth Certificate or its replacement anything to do with their management of risk.
- They mention that my “being on forums” is akin to alarm bells. I have been on forums for a flight simulator for twenty years, which they have never questioned in the 13.5 years I have been on their books. Further, I mentioned a tank game and forum some time ago to them, which I have not taken part in for over four years. Again, they have had ample opportunity to question this. They are, to coin a phrase, “over-egging the pudding.”
- I refused to take a polygraph. Others are assessed without a polygraph, are their methods of assessment so ill-equipped that only a polygraph will suffice?
- There have been no instances of my contravening my notifications or of any warnings.
- I have tried, as best as I can, to get on with what little of my life I have. I avoid people and situations physically so I cannot be accused of anything, and this has meant that my life means “within my four walls” and that outside activities are, sadly, limited to computers. To that end my online activity relates to using a flight simulator, creating items relating to flight simulators, creating music on computers, as well as political discourse on Twitter. I have, as much as possible, continued to lead a lawful life.
Payment made over phone and authorisation code emailed back. Just wait to hear now, and I can work on those reasons above while I wait for a hearing date.
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By punter99 - 20 Jul 23 3:51 PM
+xWell, here's where I'm at. Citizens Advice don't have a consultation with a pet solicitor any longer, so now they just refer you to lawworks but the phone number for them is disconnected (0207 092 3940). Found their website but no way to speak to a human being there. Getting nowhere finding a crim sol specialised enough to deal with taking this to a magistrates, even within Luton or Milton Keynes which are the two Magistrates I can apply to. Thought I would try another approach and find out what form I need to "apply to the Magistrates Court" with. No answer from the phone numbers at either court. Nor can I find out online what form I even need. This sort of explains the smugness of police - they know it's practically impossible to appeal against their decision. Pretty much end of the road. edit: Finally did get thru to MK Magistrates. There's no form. You need to "write in and we'll get advice off the legal team" which wasn't inspiring. Rang the number for Single Justice Service Centre and spoke to a really helpful man who didn't have any information or forms he could refer me to but just said all he could find was instruction that appellants need to seek legal advice (which I'm unable to). So he said in the absence of that I need to email the court stating I want to lodge an appeal so I've now sent an email to the address he provided, stating I want to lodge an appeal and with the police's refusal letter attached and asking for a hearing date and details of where/how to make payment. Got an automated reply back saying they'll respond within 5 days or thereabouts. So appeal lodged, if it's in the wrong format or not acceptable in any way nothing more I can do.
It's a start. As a last resort, you could always ask the duty solicitor at the magistrates court to speak for you. But to do that, they would need to know the details of your case. What you are appealing against and what are the grounds for appeal? Preparation is essential. That's why I suggested the Citizens Advice. It's not so much the legal technicalities, but the drafting of the appeal that matters. Making sure you word it in a way that will convince a magistrate of your case. It's same as writing a letter of complaint, for example. You don't need a specialist solicitor, just someone who is good at writing letters.
Other possible sources of advice are listed here. https://www.lawworks.org.uk/legal-advice-individuals
edit: also don't forget to keep a copy of the email you sent to the magistrates. Thats the evidence that you applied within the 21 day time limit.
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By sainted - 20 Jul 23 6:32 PM
Subject Access Request now applied for.
I'm guessing neither the Magistrate's hearing or the SAR will be speedy so gives me time to formulate what needs to be said.
Punter99
Citizens Advice were unable to help. They just don't have anyone (in my area certainly) to do with drafting stuff like this. They used to have a solicitor on certain days but that's restricted now to just Family Law stuff.
I am finding that there are very few sols prepared to get involved in the sort of appeal I need. Those that exist are in Manchester, Nottingham or London. Defo none my way.
Finding out the hard way that most are either duty solicitors or, at a pinch, prepared to deal with sexual offences but not dealing with coming off SOR or appealing against SOR refusals.
The two local solicitors I initially contacted, one got back to me and basically suggested compromising with the police and taking the polygraph (not an option).
The second one promised their relevant person would call me on Tuesday. They didn't. I rang them again today and again they promised someone would ring me back this afternoon. Again, they didn't.
Have rung the first sol to see if he'll at least represent me at Magistrates even if I don't swallow his advice to take the polygraph. Presuming he'll ring tomorrow (Fri.)
Duty Solicitor at Magistrates is an absolute last resort, only because I need someone to help formulate my defence, not just speak it and I doubt I'd get enough time with them for that.
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By punter99 - 21 Jul 23 11:29 AM
+xSubject Access Request now applied for. I'm guessing neither the Magistrate's hearing or the SAR will be speedy so gives me time to formulate what needs to be said. Punter99 Citizens Advice were unable to help. They just don't have anyone (in my area certainly) to do with drafting stuff like this. They used to have a solicitor on certain days but that's restricted now to just Family Law stuff. I am finding that there are very few sols prepared to get involved in the sort of appeal I need. Those that exist are in Manchester, Nottingham or London. Defo none my way. Finding out the hard way that most are either duty solicitors or, at a pinch, prepared to deal with sexual offences but not dealing with coming off SOR or appealing against SOR refusals. The two local solicitors I initially contacted, one got back to me and basically suggested compromising with the police and taking the polygraph (not an option). The second one promised their relevant person would call me on Tuesday. They didn't. I rang them again today and again they promised someone would ring me back this afternoon. Again, they didn't. Have rung the first sol to see if he'll at least represent me at Magistrates even if I don't swallow his advice to take the polygraph. Presuming he'll ring tomorrow (Fri.) Duty Solicitor at Magistrates is an absolute last resort, only because I need someone to help formulate my defence, not just speak it and I doubt I'd get enough time with them for that.
https://unlock.org.uk/casestudy/kurt-you-dont-need-a-solicitor-to-represent-you-to-get-a-sexual-harm-prevention-order-shpo-discharged/
You might want to ring the Unlock helpline and see if they can help. You already have the basics covered. If GRC, forums and polygraph are all indicators of risk then why were none of these things raised with you for the last 15 years? The police risk assessment is based on incomplete information and doesn't represent a true and accurate picture of your circumstances. That's your opening line.
Other things you might want to think about. Since changing gender, has your mental health improved? Are you in touch with any support groups, for people who have been through the same experience, either online or in real life? Has your mum noticed any positive changes in your behaviour and would she be willing to write a letter supporting your appeal?
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By sainted - 21 Jul 23 6:35 PM
Thanks
Solicitor now retained (£3,000), we'll finalise grounds in due course.
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By sainted - 14 Jul 23 2:39 PM
I'm now 15 years post-sentence and on SOR. PPU have always visited once a year, every time there's two of them and one sits on a laptop and I've always felt they have recorded said meetings even though I believe their remit for home visits is just to check I am resident, not to use it as an impromptu interview.
In these last fifteen years I have had a full surgical sex change. Never went for a Gender Recognition Certificate as it only changes the Birth Certificate which is only relevant if you need a passport, or want to get married, or want the right name on your death certificate, none of which matter to me.
As I was up for the 15yr point and could ask to be removed from the SOR I never considered it (I had the dates wrong and thought this wouldn't be relevant for another 6 months) PPU texted me and asked if I wanted to apply to come off the SOR. I blindly agreed and put it a hastily-worded request.
Their first response was to say they had no record of a Gender Recognition Certificate on their records - why would they? It's a replacement for a Birth Cert and they definitely shouldn't be keeping copies of SO's birth certs.
Then they asked me to take a polygraph, which I flatly refused - reasons given being Ames fooling it twice, plus the Jeremy Kyle fiasco.
Unsurprisingly the decision came back not to remove me from SOR but now to add SHPO because part of my offence involved images and because I still used pcs...
Anyway my original question now is what is the legality of PPU using home visits to record you on their laptop as an unofficial formal interview? Am I within my rights to a) refuse to speak if that home visit's only remit is to check I live at the residence?
thanks
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By sainted - 22 Sep 23 2:16 PM
+xThanks Solicitor now retained (£3,000), we'll finalise grounds in due course.
Brief update.
Went to magistrates today for a Case Management hearing.
Now listed for a full hearing at the beginning of March 2024.
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By JASB - 22 Sep 23 3:24 PM
+x+xThanks Solicitor now retained (£3,000), we'll finalise grounds in due course. Brief update. Went to magistrates today for a Case Management hearing. Now listed for a full hearing at the beginning of March 2024.
Nothing to say but "good luck"
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By sainted - 22 Sep 23 11:05 PM
+x+x+xThanks Solicitor now retained (£3,000), we'll finalise grounds in due course. Brief update. Went to magistrates today for a Case Management hearing. Now listed for a full hearing at the beginning of March 2024. Nothing to say but "good luck"
Thanks.
Extra info, both parties aware so no loss revealing.
I did apply for the SAR and BP refused it, other than to provide a copy of the texts asking me if I wanted to apply to come off SOR, and also my risk level which has been MEDIUM from 2010 to 2020, when it went to LOW.
Barrister has asked for a full SAR, which BP has agreed to. Will be a week to obtain.
Barrister said demanding a polygraph to come off SOR is not normal. BP state it is, for them. (!)
Curious that they don't seem to have a copy of my court-issued Notification Requirements, so not sure how they're applying restrictions on me they don't even have. (!!)
Nothing set in stone yet, but clear that BP are slippery fucks.
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By punter99 - 23 Sep 23 10:03 AM
+x+x+x+xThanks Solicitor now retained (£3,000), we'll finalise grounds in due course. Brief update. Went to magistrates today for a Case Management hearing. Now listed for a full hearing at the beginning of March 2024. Nothing to say but "good luck" Thanks. Extra info, both parties aware so no loss revealing. I did apply for the SAR and BP refused it, other than to provide a copy of the texts asking me if I wanted to apply to come off SOR, and also my risk level which has been MEDIUM from 2010 to 2020, when it went to LOW. Barrister has asked for a full SAR, which BP has agreed to. Will be a week to obtain. Barrister said demanding a polygraph to come off SOR is not normal. BP state it is, for them. (!) Curious that they don't seem to have a copy of my court-issued Notification Requirements, so not sure how they're applying restrictions on me they don't even have. (!!) Nothing set in stone yet, but clear that BP are slippery fucks.
Surprising that its going take another 6 months to get a hearing. As for the notification requirements, these are not restrictions imposed by the police, but by the law itself. The SOA 2003, which is all documented in parliamentary records.
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By sainted - 23 Sep 23 3:04 PM
+x+x+x+x+xThanks Solicitor now retained (£3,000), we'll finalise grounds in due course. Brief update. Went to magistrates today for a Case Management hearing. Now listed for a full hearing at the beginning of March 2024. Nothing to say but "good luck" Thanks. Extra info, both parties aware so no loss revealing. I did apply for the SAR and BP refused it, other than to provide a copy of the texts asking me if I wanted to apply to come off SOR, and also my risk level which has been MEDIUM from 2010 to 2020, when it went to LOW. Barrister has asked for a full SAR, which BP has agreed to. Will be a week to obtain. Barrister said demanding a polygraph to come off SOR is not normal. BP state it is, for them. (!) Curious that they don't seem to have a copy of my court-issued Notification Requirements, so not sure how they're applying restrictions on me they don't even have. (!!) Nothing set in stone yet, but clear that BP are slippery fucks. Surprising that its going take another 6 months to get a hearing. As for the notification requirements, these are not restrictions imposed by the police, but by the law itself. The SOA 2003, which is all documented in parliamentary records.
6 months - BP want to call their Inspector + the plod who visits = 4hrs for total case = trying to find a slot to fit all that in.
NR - there is the standard NR, but we seem to need the NR that is specific to each person (extra conditions?)
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By punter99 - 25 Sep 23 11:08 AM
+x+x+x+x+x+xThanks Solicitor now retained (£3,000), we'll finalise grounds in due course. Brief update. Went to magistrates today for a Case Management hearing. Now listed for a full hearing at the beginning of March 2024. Nothing to say but "good luck" Thanks. Extra info, both parties aware so no loss revealing. I did apply for the SAR and BP refused it, other than to provide a copy of the texts asking me if I wanted to apply to come off SOR, and also my risk level which has been MEDIUM from 2010 to 2020, when it went to LOW. Barrister has asked for a full SAR, which BP has agreed to. Will be a week to obtain. Barrister said demanding a polygraph to come off SOR is not normal. BP state it is, for them. (!) Curious that they don't seem to have a copy of my court-issued Notification Requirements, so not sure how they're applying restrictions on me they don't even have. (!!) Nothing set in stone yet, but clear that BP are slippery fucks. Surprising that its going take another 6 months to get a hearing. As for the notification requirements, these are not restrictions imposed by the police, but by the law itself. The SOA 2003, which is all documented in parliamentary records. 6 months - BP want to call their Inspector + the plod who visits = 4hrs for total case = trying to find a slot to fit all that in. NR - there is the standard NR, but we seem to need the NR that is specific to each person (extra conditions?)
You don't have an SHPO, so you don't have any extra conditions, unless they are referring to licence conditions?
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By sainted - 14 Feb 24 4:56 PM
Final Update
Decision to refuse to allow my appeal to come off the Register was overruled before the court case on 4th March and I was today presented with a Discharge Letter.
Solicitor did say I could apply for compensation but I'm not going to bother, just wanted to come off the Register and that's been achieved.
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By khafka - 15 Feb 24 12:43 PM
+xFinal Update Decision to refuse to allow my appeal to come off the Register was overruled before the court case on 4th March and I was today presented with a Discharge Letter. Solicitor did say I could apply for compensation but I'm not going to bother, just wanted to come off the Register and that's been achieved.
Congrats, mate! 
Bit of a mess to get there but you go there!
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By sainted - 15 Feb 24 3:32 PM
+x+xFinal Update Decision to refuse to allow my appeal to come off the Register was overruled before the court case on 4th March and I was today presented with a Discharge Letter. Solicitor did say I could apply for compensation but I'm not going to bother, just wanted to come off the Register and that's been achieved. Congrats, mate! Bit of a mess to get there but you go there!
Thank you, and thank you also to everyone in this thread who gave advice, support, and encouragement.
Kind regards
For reference, this is what coming off the Register looks like:
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By punter99 - 19 Feb 24 10:09 AM
+x+x+xFinal Update Decision to refuse to allow my appeal to come off the Register was overruled before the court case on 4th March and I was today presented with a Discharge Letter. Solicitor did say I could apply for compensation but I'm not going to bother, just wanted to come off the Register and that's been achieved. Congrats, mate! Bit of a mess to get there but you go there! Thank you, and thank you also to everyone in this thread who gave advice, support, and encouragement. Kind regards Nicola For reference, this is what coming off the Register looks like:
Great news. They obviously realised they were going to lose the appeal. As for compensation, I would want to recover solicitors costs for the extra hassle they caused you. But at least you can now move on with your life.
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