By Emsi - 23 Jan 11 5:50 AM
Hi,
I'm really hoping someone can give me some advice who knows how the "inside track" works on these matters. I'm trying to get a place on a healthcare related degree course at uni which requires CRB disclosure both to the university and to the regulatory board of that profession. I have a caution and a conviction for thefot - conviction was 2 years ago.
I've contacted the uni to try and understand what the procedure is for declaring, who at the uni is the decision maker etc. I've also given them specific details about my case and asked them the give me an idea as to whether I would be accepted or not on that basis. Nobody seems to want to give me any straight answer about anything. I also got the impression that staff has little training or experience in dealing with these matters. Nobody is willing to tell me who at the uni or in the department is actually responsible for saying 'yes' or 'no'. Nobody is willing to tell me to whom I actually need to declare or at what stage of the admissions process or to whom I need to give details. They keep skirting the issues and talking about academic requirements and how they change - I exceed their academic requirements yet they keep focusing on that rather than giving me a straight answer about the convictions. It makes me wonder if they would change the academic goal posts and say it was because I didn't meet the academic requirements or failed an interview rather than come clean and admit that they were rejecting me because of the CRB.
Why is it all so cloak and daggar? Why can't there be blanket guidelines depending on the type of work it is? Why are decisions on these matters left up to unis or employers - who are totally subjective? Someone said to me recently that people are people, not machines and their own opinions and prejudices always colour their decisions - there is no such thing as objectivity! How can someone have a fair interview and really sell themselves whether it be for a place at uni or for a job when at some point in the interview they have to talk about their criminal record?! There has got to be a better system which protects vulnerable people but also gives ex-offenders a fair shot at a uni place or a job!
Is there anyone who has any experience of applying to courses like medicine, dentistry etc who has cautions and convictions for minor offences. If so it would be great to hear from you. Does anyone have insider knowledge of how it all works and how feasible it is getting jobs in these professions at the end of uni when you have cautions convictions etc?
Any info or insights would be great
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By Eustace - 1 Feb 12 2:03 AM
Emsi said...
Hi,
I'm really hoping someone can give me some advice who knows how the "inside track" works on these matters. I'm trying to get a place on a healthcare related degree course at uni which requires CRB disclosure both to the university and to the regulatory board of that profession. I have a caution and a conviction for thefot - conviction was 2 years ago.
I've contacted the uni to try and understand what the procedure is for declaring, who at the uni is the decision maker etc. I've also given them specific details about my case and asked them the give me an idea as to whether I would be accepted or not on that basis. Nobody seems to want to give me any straight answer about anything. I also got the impression that staff has little training or experience in dealing with these matters. Nobody is willing to tell me who at the uni or in the department is actually responsible for saying 'yes' or 'no'. Nobody is willing to tell me to whom I actually need to declare or at what stage of the admissions process or to whom I need to give details. They keep skirting the issues and talking about academic requirements and how they change - I exceed their academic requirements yet they keep focusing on that rather than giving me a straight answer about the convictions. It makes me wonder if they would change the academic goal posts and say it was because I didn't meet the academic requirements or failed an interview rather than come clean and admit that they were rejecting me because of the CRB.
Why is it all so cloak and daggar? Why can't there be blanket guidelines depending on the type of work it is? Why are decisions on these matters left up to unis or employers - who are totally subjective? Someone said to me recently that people are people, not machines and their own opinions and prejudices always colour their decisions - there is no such thing as objectivity! How can someone have a fair interview and really sell themselves whether it be for a place at uni or for a job when at some point in the interview they have to talk about their criminal record?! There has got to be a better system which protects vulnerable people but also gives ex-offenders a fair shot at a uni place or a job!
Is there anyone who has any experience of applying to courses like medicine, dentistry etc who has cautions and convictions for minor offences. If so it would be great to hear from you. Does anyone have insider knowledge of how it all works and how feasible it is getting jobs in these professions at the end of uni when you have cautions convictions etc?
Any info or insights would be great
Emsi,
I should begin by making it clear that I do not have any experience of applying for courses in medicine and dentistry and the like, but I think I can assist you with some guidance, and since no-one else has replied, let me try and help.
First, although DBS checking is common in these types of situations, I always think it's best that you at least wait until the conviction is spent (if it is not spent already). That way, although the conviction will still come up in the checks, at least the situation is a bit more in your favour and you can, compellingly, argue that you've done your time and served out the rehabilitation period without further incident, it was all very stupid but you've matured and moved on and you now lead a stable life, and you've been volunteering in your community and helping at an old age people's home and blah, blah, blah ad naseum. Put yourself in the shoes of an admissions tutor at one of these places. If you're going to work in healthcare, then a conviction for dishonesty is bad news. Fraud is a major problem in the NHS, especially prescription fraud - or at least, that's what the Daily Mail says. You need to consider whether you are making a rod for your own back here.
On the other hand, if this is what you want to do and you can't wait out the rehabilitation period because it's too long to wait, or the conviction is spent anyway, or whatever, OK fine. The first problem I would have is the way you are approaching this with the university. That's not a criticism of you. What you've done is understandable, but it's also wrong. In this type of situation, people will often give you advice such as: "Ring them up and see what they say about it", as if the employer or university is a call-centre standing-by waiting for your call. Like they have nothing better to do, huh? What's forgotten in this kind of advice is reality. In reality, the university is not an advice centre catered for your bespoke needs and they do not want to hear from you or answer your questions. They neither have the time nor resources. The glossy brochures may say otherwise and tell you how friendly they all are and that Professor Spottingborough's door is always open and all that crap. They may even have been nice to you at open day, but none of that is reality. In reality the door is firmly shut to you. You have a criminal record and therefore you are not a desirable applicant. But, this is not an insurmountable problem. You can overcome this, but the way to tackle it is not to lean on other people, but to take control of your own future, on your terms, and try and turn yourself into a desirable applicant.
One approach is what I outline in the previous paragraph: i.e. wait out the rehabilitation period and reinvent yourself through volunteering in healthcare where possible (your record should not stop you finding low-level work somewhere in healthcare or a related area such as mental health, youth work or social work, even something voluntary). Plus you can use the time to obtain other related qualifications - maybe do a FT or PT course at the same university in a closely-related subject that does not require DBS checks. You can also build up professional contacts and relationships who will give you character references. And you can just generally keep out of trouble, developing a more mature attitude in the process.
Another approach - and one that you might prefer - is that you tackle the problem of your university entrance now, head-on. But to do this I would not bother contacting the university's staff. By contacting them, you are just making a nuisance of yourself and you are also sending a signal to them that you might lack initiative in that you can't negotiate the obstacles on your own but need to lean on an adult. And giving them details of your case outside of the application process is possibly career suicide, as there will be no context to consider the information and so it won't create a favourable impression. For these reasons, you might also want to consider backing-up your application by applying to other institutions, as you might have compromised your chances with the university you have been talking to. The DBS check is a red herring in all this because by the time they carry out the criminal records check, if they do, then it's a formality only as you should have already declared the criminal conviction to them in the application form anyway, if you're honest. The only purpose of the DBS check, then, is to confirm that you indeed have been honest.
All the information about criminal disclosure for this university, and whether they or the relevant healthcare regulator is to carry out DBS checks, and at what stage, should be in the application materials and on their website. If it isn't, then re-read it. If it's still not there, then direct me to it if it's on the web and I'll find it. If your healthcare subject involves a 'controlled activity' (not all do, but most will), you will always be asked about your record as part of the application form, so the question will be there somewhere on the application form. You must answer the question honestly. You will also be asked to explain the offence. That is an opportunity to provide mitigating information that will put you in as favourable a light as possible. I would find out the university's policy on criminal disclosure before writing this (it should be on the web, but if not send the university or the department an anonymised e-mail and ask for a PDF copy of the document). You can also, if you wish, run the wording of your mitigating statement past me and I can offer suggestions. But then it is up to the university to decide whether you are accepted.Post Edited (Eustace) : 23/02/2013 00:27:40 GMT
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By My Name is Geraldine... - 11 Oct 12 2:22 PM
Do not disclose it, there is absolutely no need, unless of course it is risk averse such as sex offending, or the course needs to know eg medicine, social work etc, in which case get a good lawyer and win any conduct panel which challenges him, I did. Thousands of students have cr's and say nothing.
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By xl - 13 Feb 10 8:45 AM
Hi Eddie,
Am I correct in that he is already enrolled on the course, furutre enrollement is just extending his period of stay and usually less of a drawn out process that the initial enrollement / acceptance onto the course. For an engineering course he will have initially been asked to disclose any un spent convictions, I should imagine he will not be asked again. I also imagine that someweher written in the uni policies will be a requirement for him to disclose if he occurs a conviction during the period of his studies. This probably wasnt made clear at the time and he could quite easily plead ignorance iin this case. If is his convcition is now spent he will no longer need to disclose anyhow. He will odds on no longer be asked the "question" and this now boils down to it just merely being a battle with his conscious to do the right thing and following university policy.
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By d211q2 - 17 Jan 11 8:32 AM
Presumably the University will have some sort of handbook on student conduct which may provide some clarification.
I was convicted not at University, but at work with quite a thorough and comprehensive staff handbook. However, whilst it had a large section on recruitment policies to do with CRB checks (who needed them, and other posts who had to declare unspent convictions) and the like, it was completely silent on members of staff in non-CRB positions (as I was). Therefore, I did not declare it.
My wife, on the other hand, works somewhere where the staff policy states that any conviction obtained during employment must be declared to HR (she does not work in a CRB-needed position), and had I been at her company when convicted, I would have done so.
In the instance of the original poster's son at university, I would advocate obtaining the policy, and sticking to whatever it advises.
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By EDDIE - 18 Apr 11 9:05 PM
Thanks for the reply, I did make enquiries with the university through the student officer however they could not really answer my query, they stated that the matter was sometime ago so my son just carried on with his studies in University. During the summer months he has undertaken work experience with a large company. When he went for an interview with them we discussed how we would deal with disclosing his conviction. The question was never asked on his application form, however I thought he should disclose it during interview, I did ring his probation office however they would not provide any guidance stating that it was down to the individual? We prepared how he would broach the subject if he was asked had he a criminal conviction however on the day of the interview he was never asked and he did not make mention of it, he told me that he didn't want to make mention of it. I had to respect his decision. His work experience has gone well and he is now returning to university for his final year in studies. There is a possibility that this company might offer him employment next year and the question of any criminal convictions might come up. I am hoping though that by this time the ROA will have be changed and that his conviction will become spent. I hope that this will be in November, however I have not seen anything on the forum giving an update on the implementation. I was planning on writing to my MP during September to ask about it. I know a lot of people are also asking, I don't really want to be another enquirer, I would like to know though what is going on. Having read a number of threads about disclosing conviction I think my view now is that he should only disclose when asked or there is a requirement to do so. I think volunteering it might cause problems, some people might disagree.
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By Hobbit - 13 May 13 1:33 PM
Its sadly the way of life in here, people like to put the past well behind them and just to be treated like the next human being but as we quickly find this is not the case at all.
There is countless debate on this very forum about the lie, some suggest would anyone disclose information that is not relevant or required for the suitable position being asked?
If your applying for a job in Tesco, what would a criminal conviction being mentioned and discussed do for that job position.... it should in theory be about that persons skills and qualifications, but its about convictions, skills and qualifications now.
The ROA is there to help but its still out of date and its anyone's guess if it will come into play this November, it was delayed before so can easily happen again but we can always hope.
I feel people on this forum have it suggested right and your correct also, if the question does not come up then just like any human being no one would reveal there secrets or past to anyone, that is personal and private information after all. If the questions requested or required for the suitable position or place then it must be disclosed, but you always have a choice to disclose or not to.
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By EDDIE - 18 Apr 11 9:05 PM
I was contacted by the Student Support team with University Registry who had made enquiries but could not really answer my question. As I have mentioned above they seem to be only interested if the conviction would affect your Fitness to practice, gave examples of medicine nursing, where there is professional registration where the conviction would have to be disclosed. I did ask about when he enrolled whether there would be a question on the enrolment form asking whether he had any convictions however they were unable to answer this. Will have to wait and see if they have any further information?
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