theForum » Travel » Travelling to Europe » Travel to Europe » Back from Spain

Harry53 — Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:21:18 GMT

[quote]

[b]JohnL - 10 Sep 15 1:13 PM[/b]

That's the concern, isn't it?

I got taken aside in May when SISII 2 was first activated, and the French border agent didn't have a clue what was going on. I'd imagine when it happens next time they will be a lot more clued up...

[/quote]

Question is how do we know if a Green Notice has been issued? Immigration certainly won't say, ??

Back from Spain

dicky6 — Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:21:18 GMT

Hello, been a while since I contributed on here.

My conviction nearly 5 years ago, and now spent, has never caused any issues apart from when re-entering Britain where the passport chaps simple ask where I have been.

However, a few weeks ago I flew into Spain and was confronted by the passport scanners. To my surprise the scanner bleeped and and i was taken to one side and asked all sorts of silly questions. the spanish police didnt seem to have a clue what to do. Only when my wife walked over could you see the sense of relief on the policeman's face and he apologised and waved me on.

I didnt think that that type of info was shared, or maybe it is just a flag on the passport.

On arriving back, it was simple 'hello Mr ..... where have you travelled from?' and that was that.

I guess what Im saying is be prepared when travelling abroad in future!

Back from Spain

Victor H — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

Hi bachman and thanks for returning to post information, always good to know peoples travelling woes and success I say this often like a broken tape but most just travel and never post back.

I suspect the guy who travelled without notification probably feels he is not an criminal and does not agree with any part of the notification, some see it as a major privacy violation also so am not surprised he did so for 3 years, we have to remember only in English speaking countries such witch hunts exist I would be 10x more worried if I was sitting next to a murderer or thug but no such register would ever exist for that since it was expose the fakeness of any register. Europe and other places no such witch hunt exist and if it does its only once and no travel notification naturally.

Back from Spain

Bachman — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

Hi Ben,

I shared a cell with a guy who thought he could go undetected by using sea ports rather than airports to get across to the continent. He successfully did for 3 years, albeit using a 2nd passport in a different name. He got caught out eventually when the Garda visited his sister in Waterford, Ireland. When asked where he was she said she didn't know and hadn't seen him in nearly 10 years. Cue an international manhunt and 3 days later he pops up in Amsterdam. I didn't really understand his reasons behind why he did this. Nothing stopped him from moving around Europe, all he would have to do is register any countries he was visiting. It seems he was someone that wanted to beat the system and nothing would change this. He got 3 years custodial which may seem harsh but when people like him do stupid things like that it ruins it for the rest of us.

Back from Spain

BenS — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

Thanks for this info Bachman, very interesting.

I'm glad you haven't let your restrictions put you off travelling, both in Europe and further afield. As UK passport holders we are lucky with the number of countries we can enter quite easily. I was recently in Mexico, which was also no problem with the police, the landing card asks nothing about convictions and the border guards just glance at your passport and stamp it without even taking a glance at your landing card or asking any questions.

Some of the border guards seem very dim, especially at smaller airports with only a handful of flights per day, asking you where you have come from when your arrival is the only one for hours in between! The most aggressive and idiotic thing I have faced was being taken into an interview room at Humberside Airport to be asked why I hadn't flown into a bigger airport like Manchester or London. I gave 3 reasons: the airport is nearer to my home, this flight was cheaper and it was at a more convenient time. I think the guard contrived that I was choosing to go through a small regional airport to somehow avoid detection or some other half-baked excuse to get me in trouble for a made-up reason.

Back from Spain

JohnL — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

Hi Bachman, and thanks for sharing your experience.

I find it very interesting to hear that a Spanish border agent had all this information - it just shows that they're paying a lot more attention to foreign travel notices, potentially following the attacks in Paris.

I've been to the Canary Islands three times whilst having to notify - once there wasn't even anyone checking passports and walked straight out (shouldn't happen but nevermind), and the other two times they waved me through when they saw I had a UK passport, not even taking it out of my or anyone else's hands.

In essence, I feel things are getting tighter and the U.K. is sharing information a lot more, particularly since the roll out of SIS2 and the article 36 alerts - for more info on this, read up on this thread.

Back from Spain

Bachman — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

My offence requires me to record all foreign travel, this isn't an issue for me. I was convicted in 2010 and have since spent most of my holidays in the Majorca but for a change decided to head for Fuerteventura for some winter sun the December just gone. Everyone was waved through (including my wife) and I was stopped much to my surprise. I had never had any problems before and the local police was as confused as I was. They got me to fill out a landing card highlighting where I was staying, duration etc., normally set aside for NON-EU citizens. The funny thing is they already had all of this information as the form I completed at my local police station registering my intent to travel they had on their desk.

It got even more bizarre on my return to the UK. I used a regional airport for no other reason then it is close to where I live. The UK Border Force official asked what must have been the stupidest question ever, "Where have you flown from today, Paris?" Given the only other flight that had landed in the past hour was a domestic I thought he was joking. He wasn't and continued with his questioning in what can only be described as an aggressive manner. When I didn't give him the answers he wanted I was taken to an interview room. I spoke with the supervisor and told him that stupid illogical questions wouldn't get a logical answer from me. I explained that I was a regular traveller and that until this point I had no issues whatsoever returning to the UK. The officer in question was trying to get a reaction in the hope I would kick off.

I am off again later this year to Mauritius. I have checked all entry requirements along with my local police force and there seems to be no problems with me entering the country, It will be interesting to see what, if any reaction I get this time.

Back from Spain

JohnL — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

I've just seen this on another forum. Could be some positive news:

" I (stopped having to notify travel) in Dec so was interested in how it would compare leaving the UK this time.
Flew out to Jamaica no problem, was great not to have to notify. No questions at all leaving UK or getting into the island, I felt like a typical tourist

Coming home was a def result as unlike the previous 3 yrs the biometric gate worked ! :) Passport scan was accepted and also the face pic so hopefully the flags on my id seem to have gone ? Test will be if I try the US I guess".

Some positive news there for those who have to notify travel. As another poster said it may have not been an issue at Jamaixa as they aren't in the EU and so article 36 alerts wouldn't flag there, but does suggest, in this particular case, that a green notice hadn't been submitted on this person.

Back from Spain

JohnL — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

Thanks Mirrorman. Have you got the source documents / links which support those timeframes? I've read similar, but I've also then read different ones, such as green notices are an automatic 5 years.

Back from Spain

Mirrorman — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

Section 36 is one year MAX, where it can be then extended by review.

Green notice - I think the requesting country puts the limit on it.

Both should be cancelled upon ending of notification period. In practice there is no way to know.

Back from Spain

Yankee — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

JohnL - unfortunately I haven't been able to find anything concrete on the "expiry date" of a section 36 alert or a process for deleting alerts.

I guess all you can do once your notification period ends is to try and get written confirmation from the PPU that your ViSOR record is archived and the PNC section on alerts has been updated. You could also try a Subject Access Request via ACPO where you ask very specific questions about both live and archived information held about you on SISII.

I doubt the PPU would put anything in writing, but if they did and it proves incorrect you might be able to use it later on in a legal claim should an unintended consequence arise (e.g. you travel with your boss and a border official makes a less than discreet enquiry and you end up losing your job ...)

Back from Spain

JohnL — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

You raise a very good point Yankee - how many of our "allies" is the UK sharing our watchlist with?

It looks like you have researched the SIS 2 system. What's your view on how long article 36 notices stay on the system? From what I can see, it can be around a year after you stop notifying before the article 36 alerts stop flagging up at EU borders. PPU have told me that they think it could be 6 months (but seemed to just be trying to give any answer rather than say they didn't know).

I'd hope that, if for example I not longer had to notify as of tomorrow, that if I travelled in a month's time then nothing would flag up. But, I think I reality that it may well do?

Back from Spain

Yankee — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

I think I posted much of this information earlier this year on another thread.

If you notify travel within the EU and 4 EEA countries (Switzerland, Litchenstein, etc.) a section 36 alert is automatically issued by your PPU via SISII. According to the SIS guidelines, there is no risk assessment - automatic if you are on the SOR.

SISII is not linked to any systems outside the EU. As you probably know, the EU in general (France and Germany in particular) has very tight data protection and personal privacy laws.

Beyond the EU, it is up to the PPU to do a risk assessment and determine whether to issue an Interpol green notice. If they do, anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that some countries process them efficiently and the information will flag at the foreign border control, while others take little notice or do not have the ability to check at point of arrival.

The above is how the system works when everyone plays by the rules. As we know post-Snowden, however, governments can say one thing and do another.

Anyone who has to notify will be on the ViSOR database. Those records are updated to the Home Office Warnings Index (the UK's Watchlist), which is what UK border control see when you return to the UK.

The real question is which countries do we share Watchlist information with??

Back from Spain

Mirrorman — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

There is no way to know, you're not meant to know these alerts are sent out about you.

They want covert intelligence gathered on your movements as they believe you will commit further crimes on your travels.

Back from Spain

JohnL — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

That's interesting. So UK border agents would remove the flag so you wouldn't be flagged on returning to the UK or going through UK based e-passport gates?

I'm guessing it's not the same for when you're travelling abroad, especially when you're notifying and then article 36 alerts and/or green notices are sent out by plod? From my understanding, article 36 notices stay for one year after they're first sent out and the green noticed last up to 5 years.

It'd be interested to hear if anyone has managed to have article 36 and/or green notices removed after they no longer have to notify?

Back from Spain

BenS — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

JohnL said...
So, my concern there, is that once you no longer have to notify, the flag will still appear when you enter France, for example, as they've made their own records

Depends on your local police force/PPO etc.

If they're particularly annoying, they would simply "forget" to remove the flag. Then you would have to ask them, then they would ask for proof from you that the notification period has ended, in which case you have to find court papers and potentially see a solicitor or contact the court where you were convicted. The police will then grudgingly and belatedly remove your flag "as a goodwill gesture" "as an exception" etc.

This is what happened to me, not with a flag but with a banning/restraining order, which was for 2 years but the police said 4 years and I had to go to great lengths to prove to them that the court really did state 2 years. Showing them the original signed court document was not enough of course.

What I would do when you finish your notification period is to make a point of checking with your local police / whoever you report to, armed with paperwork.

Back from Spain

JohnL — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

It's the foreign border agents (France etc) that you need to be careful with, as if they scan your passport and see a flag, they can potentially put notes about you on their system. So, my concern there, is that once you no longer have to notify, the flag will still appear when you enter France, for example, as they've made their own records

Back from Spain

BT — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

JohnL - yes the passport was handed over at border patrol coming back & it was scanned, but they've been doing this for a little while now. The questions asked didn't seem any more intrusive than they would have asked anyone else - pretty pointless stuff really. In theory it's a bit stricter going out, but I've not found that, just wave your passport & no one looks at it, so I'm guessing that it's just UK people who are subject to all of this. i wouldn't mind if it had any relevance, but it really doesn't in my case

Back from Spain

BenS — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

A month ago (October 2015) I travelled from Dover to Calais by ferry. As is usual for both ferry and tunnel, all the checks are done in the country you are leaving i.e. if you're going to France, both UK and French checks are done at Dover, then you drive straight off onto the motorway at the other end. Vice versa when coming from France to the UK.

Anyway, at Dover I drove past both UK and French border guards who just waved all the cars through without even bothering to check passports or even opening the window of their little hut. On the way back at Calais, the UK border guard did look at my passport but he never put it through a scanner, it was just a quick visual check that you are the person on the photograph.

Maybe this has tightened since the tragedy the other week but at that point, which was definitely after the implementation of the new travel alert system, they weren't bothering with it at all.

Post Edited (BenS) : 24/11/2015 09:23:24 (GMT+1)

Back from Spain

JohnL — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

Hi BT,

Good to hear you had a good experience coming back through. With the heightened alerts at the moment I'd have thought that things would have got a lot more difficult.

I haven't been on the Eurotunnel for a loooooong time - did you have to show your passport to a French border agent when leaving France as you have to on the Eurostar? The latest I'm reading is that passports have to be scanned now when travelling between all EU countries, whereas previously only 1 in 10 were actually scanned and the rest just had a courtesy glance at the picture to make sure it matches. For those who notify, this is likely where the main issues will now arise from the troubles in Northern Europe. I'm not looking forward to the potential of a French/Spanish/Italian border agent, who doesn't speak English, seeing the flag and starting some awkward situation!

Back from Spain

BT — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

I came back today from travelling & have to say that it was a doddle going through the border control on eurotunnel. In some respects it was almost too easy as there were long delays, but no one checked the boot of my car for anything, which I'd expected would be standard for everyone regardless of whether or not you flag up on anything. Just got asked where I'd been, why I'd gone & whether I owned the car & when from. I could have easily gone with a friend & they'd have been none the wiser, but I'm still not risking it as the end is getting closer now for when I can finally move on with my life without one hand tied behind my back so to speak.

The only stress & hassle came in notifying of my travel as I came across someone who decided to offer their opinion that the amount of travelling I was doing seemed a lot for such a short trip, but I've done this enough times now that I can stay relatively calm & not bite on the sly comments.

Back from Spain

JohnL — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

Back from Spain

Mirrorman — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

Yes I seen this coming.

So whenever you travel within EU now your passport will be 100% scanned. Upon being scanned your details will be run against the Interpol databases as well as SIS.

With an alert placed by the British police on SIS as well as a possible Green notice this will come up, the real question is what exactly will happen then?

Back from Spain

JohnL — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

In light of th terrible atrocity in Paris, I've been waiting for an announcement on tighten travel controls and it looks like things are indeed heading that way. Relating to a meeting of foreign ministers this week, the below is from a Reuters article:

"At present, most EU citizens are merely subject to a visual check of their documents. Pressed by France, ministers also agreed to revise the Schengen border code in due course to make such systematic checks of EU citizens compulsory and also introduce biometric data checks for those crossing the borders."

Although the UK isn't in the Schengen Agreement, what this likely means is the end of simply being waved through (more or less) when you arrive in an EU country from the UK, and potentially also when travelling between Schengen area countries. For those who have to notify travel, it's likely to get a lot more likely that border agents in France/Spain etc will now scan passports which will potentially result in any article 36 / Interpol green botices flagging up... not an ideal situation at all!

Back from Spain

Mirrorman — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:57:47 GMT

Why wouldn't they issue both?

There are how many formal and informal ways to send this information I believe it would be done 100% of the time.

The real question is WHY exactly they are doing this? Further punishment? A way to restrict travel without going through the courts?