theForum » Criminal record checks for employment (including DBS checks) » Basic criminal record checks » Issues with basic certificates » Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

Victor H — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Livingproof said...
Hi, this thread has spooked me! You see I have been offered a great new job and the employer is carrying out a basic disclosure check via Disclosure Scotland. I have one conviction with a community service order which is now spent under recent changes to ROA. The thing is, I can't remember if I was handed a compensation order!... I remember paying some money to the court on the day of sentencing, which I think was a fine and probably costs.

I requested a basic disclosure myself (just to check the changes) and this was issued on 22/04/2014. It just said 'the applicant has no convictions for disclosure - End of disclosure'.

Is this compensation order thing a new rule change? Will it affect future disclosures? If I did have a compensation order would it have shown up on the April check?

Really worried - I've already quit my old job thinking basic disclosure would be fine.

Got no choice but just to crack on with things and not worry, if the current basic check says nothing then it should in theory stay that way unless you re-offended or lived as I put it :)

I would not do anything in haste but if it comes it comes then deal with it.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

Livingproof — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Hi, this thread has spooked me! You see I have been offered a great new job and the employer is carrying out a basic disclosure check via Disclosure Scotland. I have one conviction with a community service order which is now spent under recent changes to ROA. The thing is, I can't remember if I was handed a compensation order!... I remember paying some money to the court on the day of sentencing, which I think was a fine and probably costs.

I requested a basic disclosure myself (just to check the changes) and this was issued on 22/04/2014. It just said 'the applicant has no convictions for disclosure - End of disclosure'.

Is this compensation order thing a new rule change? Will it affect future disclosures? If I did have a compensation order would it have shown up on the April check?

Really worried - I've already quit my old job thinking basic disclosure would be fine.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

Victor H — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

thanks aim for the confirmation at least some hope to others that read this thread.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

AJW83 — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

topperharley said...
For those worrying about the contents of the basic disclosure, the guidance is here:

www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/disclosureinformation/whatisadisclosure.htm

It clearly indicates what is on the basic disclosure, Moderated ..............]

You sir are gent you made my day can get on with my life next year then

Post Edited By Moderator (Moderator) : 06/06/2014 12:08:40 (GMT+2)

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

aim — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Here's the result of my Disclosure Scotland experiment. 1 to 3 were carried out sequentially.

1. Application WITHOUT proof of payment for compensation order = spent conviction disclosed
2. Application WITH proof of payment for compensation order = spent conviction NOT disclosed
3. Application WITHOUT proof of payment for compensation order = spent conviction NOT disclosed

So once you provide proof of payment they do keep that on their system.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

topperharley — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

For those worrying about the contents of the basic disclosure, the guidance is here:

www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/disclosureinformation/whatisadisclosure.htm

It clearly indicates what is on the basic disclosure, Moderated ....

Post Edited By Moderator (Moderator) : 06/06/2014 12:08:16 (GMT+2)

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

The Stig — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Damag3d said...
First I have heard of this but this is terrible news indeed

It could be that records take time to get updated I have long suspected some bloke in I.T tapping away with his keyboard simply pressing the delete button on some guys criminal conviction. The issue being is no one knows the exact process and who exactly is doing the updating, I also reckon someone does know this guy and department and has his number but it may be that its just a process of updating each record to comply with law etc

Perhaps unlock can advise here on any way to get this updated quicker?

That complaints email you said is invalid so one has to dig further I would also suggest writing a complaint headed letter (recorded delivery) to scotland disclosure since they hold information regarding you which is incorrect and illegal by law and demand the information be updated or altered to comply with law. Someone has to do something at that point as in someone who knows something.

Remember you may be an ex-offender but everyone is a criminal in this world and just like yourself you can use the law against them.

Moderated .............

Post Edited By Moderator (Moderator) : 06/06/2014 12:07:29 (GMT+2)

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

Victor H — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

The Stig:

It does sound like its going off the old system, was not even aware basic disclosures were mentioning that much detail all that for a basic job stacking baked beans or working in a shop or office, complete madness that is uk.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

aim — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

hi Aspire. Good to hear from you. I hope you're ok. I've finally removed the conviction from my basic disclosure so doing a lot better.

I have received a clean disclosure after submitting compensation order evidence.

I have just submitted another request but without providing compensation order evidence to test if they do indeed keep a record and consider the conviction spent. This one should come back clean too.

£75 it's cost me to test their systems. I should invoice them!!

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

Christopher Stacey — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Dear All,

Just to give you an update on this, we've received a lot of evidence about a number of practical issues with the way that the ROA is working in practice, and in terms of basic disclosures. We'll be putting together an advice update in the next week or so, giving some clarity around compensation orders and other orders given at court. We'll also be suggesting that people send off for their own basic disclosure, to check their own records to make sure that Disclosure Scotland is processing them accurately.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

Aspire — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Dear AIM,

Hope you are well. A massive thank you for highlighting the Comp Order issue... that could have scuppered my employment prospects and caused a lot of embarrassment and subsequent explanation. I am one of those that were delighted I could get a clear Basic Disclosure following the ROA amends as I was 'spent' years ago but would have had to wait a few more years with the 5 year Scottish rule.

I have now applied for my own check and will submit 'evidence' that I paid in full on the day of sentence via the link you kindly emailed here just to see if they 'marry' up the two. They told me I only have to submit once. I would certainly recommend you get a clean Basic Disclosure again yourself just in case there is any mix up in future so that you can state that your cert is wrong and show the clean one until sorted. Like you, I am slightly cynical about their capability to match up 'factual evidence' with forms submitted.

Will let you know how I get on and see if it comes back clean as it should do!

Aspire

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

Victor H — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

The Stig:

Moderated ...............................

Regardless as nicely put by nice try, the ROA and spent and not and cautions etc it really means nothing if employers and other companies such as dbs ( UK government) are counter working against the ROA Law by allowing illegal (criminal) checks to take place on a daily basis.

Still it does not surprise me considering Metropolitan police officers leak Criminal records to everyone as shown here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2621016/Met-shame-officers-leak-data-force-computer-criminals-300-uniform-civilian-staff-caught-abusing-system.html

And then the officers were simply sacked or resigned before being prosecuted.... or worse rehired later on

Post Edited By Moderator (Moderator) : 06/06/2014 12:05:36 (GMT+2)

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

Mirrorman — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Does that Notification come up for everyone or just people who were once subject to the act?

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

aim — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Hi Stig,

This does raise an interesting point. All the blurb points to the Police Act s112 which allows them to issue the certificate. The contents are determined by the ROA 1974. Then this must apply to convictions only. If notification requirements are separate from the conviction itself for the determination of spent or not then it should not appear on a basic certificate. (Moderated - ......................). It just had the legal blurb followed by a Convictions section with "The applicant has no convictions for disclosure". Clearly if you state no convictions and the check comes back (Moderated ........................) then anyone looking at the certificate will know there must have been a conviction even if it isn't shown.

Post Edited By Moderator (Moderator) : 06/06/2014 12:00:01 (GMT+2)

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

aim — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

The ROA states www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/53/section/4:

Effect of rehabilitation.

(1)Subject to sections 7 and 8 below, a person who has become a rehabilitated person for the purposes of this Act in respect of a conviction shall be treated for all purposes in law as a person who has not committed or been charged with or prosecuted for or convicted of or sentenced for the offence or offences which were the subject of that conviction; and, notwithstanding the provisions of any other enactment or rule of law to the contrary, but subject as aforesaid—
(a)no evidence shall be admissible in any proceedings before a judicial authority exercising its jurisdiction or functions in Great Britain to prove that any such person has committed or been charged with or prosecuted for or convicted of or sentenced for any offence which was the subject of a spent conviction; and
(b)a person shall not, in any such proceedings, be asked, and, if asked, shall not be required to answer, any question relating to his past which cannot be answered without acknowledging or referring to a spent conviction or spent convictions or any circumstances ancillary thereto.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

aim — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

I provided proof of payment of my compensation order and applied for a basic disclosure. The certificate came back with "The applicant has no convictions for disclosure"

I have confirmation from Disclosure Scotland that they keep a record of proof of payment so it is not required for each submission.

I am tempted to request another certificate to test whether they do indeed keep a record.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

james — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Not London unfortunately! I am optimistic however that I can easily find record of the payment somewhere!

Agreed. I'll give 'em a call Monday/Tuesday to tell them/seek advice. Perhaps you and others may want to do the same?

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

aim — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

I have exchanged many emails with Disclosure Scotland on this. For example:

Me: "So to confirm my conviction will never be spent until proof of payment for the compensation order component is provided to Disclosure Scotland? Furthermore if proof is provided I have to pay for a new application?"
DS: "Yes that is correct. The guidance is on the website explain how to provide proof when applying."

And also this:

"We have numerous cases where people have applied from England and provided us with proof of payment who live in England.

You can get in touch with the courts for proof of payment, a receipt from paying it or if you paid it via bank it will be on a statement.

This is the guidance in which we follow. Unless you can provide proof of payment then this will be going out on your disclosure."

I've been in discussions with Chris Stacey on how to approach this.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

aim — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Ouch! I suspect there are many many people in the same situation. If you were convicted in the London area you should be ok contacting the London Collection and Compliance Centre /courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/courts/london-collection-and-compliance-centre

This has the potential of continuing to ruin lives as legally correct non-disclosures will be seen as lies by employers due to Disclosure Scotland issuing incorrect information. They need to be stopped!!

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

james — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Yes it is.

I was very surprised when I found out that Disclosure Scotland were going to continue doing the basics despite an independence referendum around the corner (although unlikely to become independent but still!)

I'll try and contact them on Monday.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

james — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

....And just found out I am in the same boat as you aim, victim surcharge does count as a compensation order.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

aim — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

In my case I found the London Collection and Compliance Centre have proof of payment being made.

So I don't know what the procedure is for the rest of the UK.

The point is the burden should be on Disclosure Scotland to find this out. They are issuing certificates showing unspent convictions when they are spent and providing incorrect guidance which they insist is followed (i.e. the sentencing court keeps a record). You can't win as you need them to issue the certificate. All while supposedly being protected by the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.

I have to pay Disclosure Scotland again to reissue the certificate. I am not sure whether I have to provide payment proof each time or if they update their systems. Considering their feckless approach so far I'll err on the side of they won't update their records.

Isn't it about time the DBS provided basic disclosure for England and Wales?

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

james — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Thanks for the info! Given me something to look into and contact people about.

Feel for you aim. Hope you get it sorted soon which I'm sure you will.

James

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

aim — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

A compensation order isn't the same as a fine. It's payable to the victim of your crime rather than the state.

According to LASPO it's spent as soon as you pay it: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/10/section/139

"A compensation order - End of rehabilitation period for adult offenders: The date on which the payment is made in full"

My compensation order was part of my sentence which also included a community order.

I paid the compensation order within the six month window is was given by the judge. The issue here is that Disclosure Scotland want proof of that payment. The court does not hold that information.

A compensation order is not the same as court costs or a fine. I don't know if victim surcharge is a compensation order. This is the problem. Some people don't remember what they were given or whether it is a compensation order or not.

Spent conviction shown on basic disclosure

james — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:55:49 GMT

Hmmm

Tricky one this. I got a suspended sentence and was also ordered to pay court costs plus a victim surcharge amounting to £200.

Is this compensation?

I also paid mine about 3 weeks after date of conviction.