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Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Sat, 23 Jun 2018 20:08:40 GMT

Hi
It is my 30th wedding anniversary next July 2019. My wife has always wanted to travel to the USA for a holiday and it would be my dearest wish to do this for her.

I was convicted of possession of 6 (SIX) images in 2003 and my sentence was a small fine and registration for 5 yrs. At the time of travel the conviction would therefor be 16 yrs old (the actual 'offence' was in 2001 but it took the police forensic two years to re-find the images after their machine broke down!), I quotation mark offence a I am innocent, have always maintained my innocence and always will, the images were allegedly found on a computer that was brand new only 5 weeks before and after a lightening strike was being repaired by what I now know to be a very dubious company ( since folded) and even the police forensics examiner was himself convicted of perjury a few years later and removed from the experts list!!!!

However, i understand completely that this is all irrelevant, I am convicted and since 2001 have lived quietly in a rural area away from society and fearful of the google effect every day of my life. Obviously my wife has borne this burden with me and for this reason I am plucking up the courage to apply for a Visa, she should not be punished further.

So my questions are the obvious ones really; Will I get a visa? Also, advice re how the US treats my offence. I also seek advice because I am a proud man, an innocent man, and i have read the consulate like their applicants to be remorseful and showing they are changed characters. I don't think I can do that, I am innocent. Would that go against me? Finally, should I apply myself or pay a solicitor / expert to do it for me?

Any advice would be very gratefully received.

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Sat, 23 Jun 2018 20:08:40 GMT

Thank You all for your comments. So, I returned to Manchester at 15:30 Walked behind my wife to the electronic gates she went first it halted half way through the passport official told her to raise her glasses and keep staring at the screen, it flashed a few times and she was through. My turn, it scanned my passport, I could see my face on the screen , white light, I stood still, got nervous and looked a few inches higher, the white light moved with me, still saw myself on screen and then.......Pleasd seek assistance!!! damn. I was directed to the desk, young official, she scanned my passport, I asked her why this passport had never passed the auto screen, was there something wrong with the chip? No she says, the chip is fine, she was pleasant, joking and basically said that it was my fault for not using the gate properly!!!! So, non the wiser, if I am to believe a young, bored, jokey official then my passsport is fine but I need to use the gates better... I didn’t press the issue, she was really friendly, but I lost the nerve to ask if there were any flags on her screen, I only asked if I had a dodgy chip or was there something else wrong to which she replied, no, all is ok, the gates are sensitive sand haven’t recognised me sufficiently. Jobe

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Deb S — Thu, 21 Jun 2018 08:13:02 GMT

[quote]

[b]Jobe1287 - 20 Jun 18 2:48 PM[/b]

So, as Ben forewarned every one on the flight took a minute to clear passport control. Passport was scanned took about 30 seconds during which time the young officer held full eye contact 😳Then a beep he looked at the screen said thank you and gave me my passport back. Like a whimp I had waited until I was almost the last in line and he did the same intense glare at all the men and half a glare with the ladies on the flight. But I am here, now a few days to let my heart rate settle and then the trauma of re-entry into Manchester.

[/quote]

Have a great holiday Jobe and try not to worry too much about the journey home.

Debs

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

tedstriker — Wed, 20 Jun 2018 15:11:36 GMT

Great news. Now have a beer and enjoy your holiday!

For future reference I have often had my wife go through before me and wait for me when returning to the UK. She can see the screen of the border agent (although not well enough to read it) and noted there is a red alert box if the passport flags something.

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Wed, 20 Jun 2018 14:48:51 GMT

So, as Ben forewarned every one on the flight took a minute to clear passport control. Passport was scanned took about 30 seconds during which time the young officer held full eye contact 😳 Then a beep he looked at the screen said thank you and gave me my passport back. Like a whimp I had waited until I was almost the last in line and he did the same intense glare at all the men and half a glare with the ladies on the flight. But I am here, now a few days to let my heart rate settle and then the trauma of re-entry into Manchester.

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Wed, 20 Jun 2018 09:24:44 GMT

Just cleared security and check in at Manchester. Waiting for flight to krakow, should land at 2:25 will update on arrival 🙏

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Wed, 30 May 2018 10:13:49 GMT

Thank You Ben

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

BenS — Wed, 30 May 2018 07:59:56 GMT

[quote]

[b]Jobe1287 - 29 May 18 9:50 AM[/b]

Morning BenThank you for your input. I presumed as much, the ESTA is slightly worthless in my opinion.The full and final test will always be the passport officer checking details on landing. I presume due to the delays I hear of all the time that the USA thoroughly scan all passengers passports on arrival?I did research the pre clearance at Dublin but in my naive mind I tend to think that if they are not as busy and on UK soil and working closely with UK border officials then the odd peek at our databases might happen without using the official channels!! So am more inclined to favour fronting it out at JFK or as originally thought, biting the bullet and applying for a visa waiver. Jobe

[/quote]

Dublin is not UK soil - Ireland is a foreign country just like Tajikistan is a foreign country. If the Americans did "peek" at anything (which I don't believe they are allowed to do without a formal Interpol request that must be justified by reasonable suspicion, not simply a random check), it would be in the Irish system.

I can only stress what has been said previously - people with unspent and far more serious convictions than you have travelled to the US on an ESTA and got in no problem. Plus, you can morally and truthfully tick "no" due to the rewording of the criminal question - no more "moral turpitude", which could be absolutely anything - now a narrower question about "causing damage to persons or property" or something like that.

Anyway, enjoy your trip to Poland and let us know how it goes with the automatic gates and any human interaction you have with border control :-)

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

AB2014 — Tue, 29 May 2018 11:07:09 GMT

[quote]

[b]Jobe1287 - 28 May 18 9:14 PM[/b]

Hi Square, thanks for your input. I understand your view / explanation especially regarding Nigella. I am a little concerned about the Irish woman though. She overstayed her visa some years previously so no doubt was immediately placed on a ‘no re entry’ kind of watch list, which I completely understand. She however, successfully applied for an ESTA! if my reasoning is correct the ESTA process should check known watch lists before granting permission to travel, so why didn’t that happen?Apart from a direct tip off at Dublin airport pre clearance I can’t think of why the official would ask for further checks? Any ideas? Jobe

[/quote]

I suspect the problem in this case might be that the ESTAs are issued by the State Department, but the border posts are staffed by Homeland Security. The two departments have different approaches to border control. It looks like the ESTA process does not include a check of lists, whereas DHS would probably be checking various immigration problem lists, and overstaying is probably a criminal offence, maybe even a federal offence, and could automatically lead to a 10-year ban from the US.

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Tue, 29 May 2018 09:50:39 GMT

Morning Ben Thank you for your input. I presumed as much, the ESTA is slightly worthless in my opinion. The full and final test will always be the passport officer checking details on landing. I presume due to the delays I hear of all the time that the USA thoroughly scan all passengers passports on arrival? I did research the pre clearance at Dublin but in my naive mind I tend to think that if they are not as busy and on UK soil and working closely with UK border officials then the odd peek at our databases might happen without using the official channels!! So am more inclined to favour fronting it out at JFK or as originally thought, biting the bullet and applying for a visa waiver. Jobe

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

BenS — Tue, 29 May 2018 09:14:21 GMT

[quote]

[b]Jobe1287 - 28 May 18 9:14 PM[/b]

I am a little concerned about the Irish woman though. She overstayed her visa some years previously so no doubt was immediately placed on a ‘no re entry’ kind of watch list, which I completely understand. She however, successfully applied for an ESTA! if my reasoning is correct the ESTA process should check known watch lists before granting permission to travel, so why didn’t that happen?

[/quote]

Hi Jobe - I would guess that a visa overstay is not a serious enough reason to be put on a watchlist, so would not be picked up during the automated ESTA check.

As most ESTA results come back within a few minutes, I would assume it's a quick, automatic check against vital watchlists, not an in-depth look at any tiny bit of information that the US has. It is written somewhere that having an ESTA approved does not guarantee you entry into the US - the final decision is with the border guard - this seems to confirm that they really don't check that hard when approving the ESTA, but the border guard would have the more detailed information about previous visas etc. upon scanning your passport in person.

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Mon, 28 May 2018 21:35:09 GMT

Thank you Zack for taking the time to reply. Much appreciated,

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Zack — Mon, 28 May 2018 21:22:06 GMT

I do not have a criminal record myself (I'm on here as my partner does). My passport never works in the automatic gates, I did ask and was told it was a defective chip, I got the impression that this happens quite a lot. So if your passport doesn't work in the gates, it's possible there are other reasons for this.

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Mon, 28 May 2018 21:14:42 GMT

Hi Square, thanks for your input. I understand your view / explanation especially regarding Nigella. I am a little concerned about the Irish woman though. She overstayed her visa some years previously so no doubt was immediately placed on a ‘no re entry’ kind of watch list, which I completely understand. She however, successfully applied for an ESTA! if my reasoning is correct the ESTA process should check known watch lists before granting permission to travel, so why didn’t that happen? Apart from a direct tip off at Dublin airport pre clearance I can’t think of why the official would ask for further checks? Any ideas? Jobe

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Square — Mon, 28 May 2018 14:32:22 GMT

[quote]

[b]Jobe1287 - 28 May 18 1:41 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Jobe1287 - 22 May 18 8:36 PM[/b]

Thank You again johnL for an extremely informative and knowledgable post. I am a little late to change my passport before krakow and also I do want to test this passport out too. I especially found your interaction with the PPU most interesting. It leads me to believe there is and was never any justifiable reason to place any kind of notice on my passport and therefore there should not be on on my relatively new one and most certainly not on a new one again. ( I will definately take your advice and renew my passport before applying for an ESTA )Can I ask, you stated on two replies that you became aware of notices on your passport, how did you know?Your posts have swayed me massively towards the ESTA route, you rightly point out that I can legally, justifiably and morally apply for and ESTA and answer all application questions honestly. Jobe

[/quote]

Hi Again!

Am getting a little nervous now re my upcoming trip and as is my custom am heavily researching forums etc!!!!

Just to recap, I am travelling to Europe from Manchester on the 20th June primarily to test out the automated passport gates on my return and to test BenS's submission that the Schengen countries now insist on full scanning of all in and out passengers, so it is a chance to test out if I am questioned at all.

I came across a few webpages such as the independent in which it highlighted difficulties sin travelling to the USA, and in particular Nigella Lawson being refused entry. In that case she had never been convicted of any offence but a few months prior had admitted in open court (during the case against her former husband for assault) that she had taken Cocaine.

She was travelling on an ESTA and was stopped at the US Border? How can that happen?

Another case but a little older 2009, an Irish woman travelling through p[re clearance in Dublin on an ESTA was stopped and refused as the customs official had information that she had overstayed her Visa some years earlier by 8 days.

My question is, why did the ESTA allow her to travel but there was more detailed info that the customs official was aware of?

In the case of Nigella, was this just her being placed on a watch list? For what purpose?

I still favour the ESTA route when I travel in July 2019 but have reservations.

Anyway, will update as I clear customs in Manchester / Krakow on the 20th and again on my return.

Jobe

[/quote]

In the case of Nigella, she is a public figure and her case was widely publicised. I'm sure someone noticed that she was due to arrive and stopped her. the case of the Irish woman - the problem occurred in the US so surely this was put on her 'file' when it happened.
There is a case of a public figure (Jim Torbett) and ex football coach who had previous convictions, and was tracked down to the US even although there were fresh allegations against him. He was travelling on an ESTA (he was kicked out when the story went public).
Unless someone informs homeland security you are travelling, have committed an offence in the US, or have an overly attendant homeland security official you will be fine.
If your case was not reported in the press I can't see how they would even be able to find out if the wanted to. Even then, they cant search the web for every person.

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Mon, 28 May 2018 13:41:05 GMT

[quote]

[b]Jobe1287 - 22 May 18 8:36 PM[/b]

[/quote]

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Tue, 22 May 2018 20:36:25 GMT

Thank You again johnL for an extremely informative and knowledgable post. I am a little late to change my passport before krakow and also I do want to test this passport out too. I especially found your interaction with the PPU most interesting. It leads me to believe there is and was never any justifiable reason to place any kind of notice on my passport and therefore there should not be on on my relatively new one and most certainly not on a new one again. ( I will definately take your advice and renew my passport before applying for an ESTA ) Can I ask, you stated on two replies that you became aware of notices on your passport, how did you know? Your posts have swayed me massively towards the ESTA route, you rightly point out that I can legally, justifiably and morally apply for and ESTA and answer all application questions honestly. Jobe

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

JohnL — Mon, 21 May 2018 22:43:18 GMT

Just to add, I’ve found the 10 year rule information - it’s on the website of a US immigration lawyer based in the UK. The article is below. To fully understand it all it does require some research on US criminal statutes, but the 10 year rule does seem to apply to those with no custody, low number image offenses. https://www.us-visa.co.uk/Articles/inadmissibility-and-waivers/can-sexual-offenders-be-forgiven I do however believe that, unless you wanted to live there, the ESTA route is the better one to go for, particularly as you can answer all the ESTA questions honestly and still tick no to everything as they’ve changed the wording of the infamous ‘moral turpitude’ question.. If after interview for a visa the embassy official was happy with your responses, they would need to send a visa waiver request recommendation to the Department of Homeland Security which I’ve read can take at least 6 months, and isn’t guaranteed.

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

JohnL — Mon, 21 May 2018 22:29:35 GMT

Hi Jobe, It sounds like you’ve found a way of dealing with the issue that is working for you, so I wish you every success with that continuing. When I was first on the SoR, i was able to travel abroad without anything flagging on the border computers, anywhere. I had to notify any travel at the police station as per always - it sounds like you were lucky with doing it via a friend. After 6 months or so, I realised that my passport was starting to be flagged when I arrived in European Union member countries, but not African countries. This led me to do some research, and I came to the conclusion that people on the SoR have Visor records. Whenever travel is notified, the Visor record sends out an article 36 alert to the destination country via the Schengen information system (only for EU countries). It also creates an alert on the HOWI, Home Office Watch index. This is why you can be asked questions both when arriving in a foreign EU country and when arriving back in the UK. I put my findings to the PPU team by phone and they were 1) shocked that I knew about the article 36 alerts, and 2) confirmed that whenever a person notifies travel that is on the SoR it sends out an automatic alert. I asked why I wasn’t having the problem with Africa, and they said that would be covered by an Interpol Green Notice which has to be requested manually, however they said they saw me as very low risk so had decided not to send out these green notices. So the Schengen alerts are automatic, and the Green notices are manual. My suggestion is that you don’t make any enquiries at the police station on this subject at all. You are meant to notify at a ‘prescribed’ police station, which are allocated stations for dealing with SoR issues. It sounds like your policeman friend was helping you, but you could come into some legal issues if they find out you were travelling without properly notifying - the buck will always stop with you. Though saying that, I believe the law changed in 2013, so it may be that you didn’t have to notify travel before - I’m not fully sure. But best to keep quiet just in case. Before you go to Krakow, get a new passport. That way, you know it’s clean and if your old passport was on any lists then the new one won’t be as you get a new passport number. You should also remember that the trip to krakow is covered by different laws and watch lists than the US, so a success trip to krakow won’t necessarily guarantee a success trip to the US (and vice versa). However, I’ve done a lot of research into the travel laws regarding current and post SoR registrants and I genuinely believe you will be fine, especially as I was notifying more recently than you and had no issue at all after years of worrying. Once you get your new passport and before you go to Krakow, apply for the ESTA. Krakow won’t have access to your approved or denied ESTA information, but at least then you’ll know for both US and European travel. Get ready to enjoy some fun trips - I cannot see how you’d possibly have a problem. John

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Mon, 21 May 2018 20:06:06 GMT

Hi JohnL

Thank You so much for taking the time to offer advice and reassurance, it is very much appreciated and gratefully received.

I am glad you have ‘made peace’ with your past, I have not been able to do so despite intensive psychotherapy, prescription drugs and an occasional practice run of a final peace.

I find especially with the google effect hovering over me waiting to strike at any time, the best for me has been complete social withdrawal, I live very quietly in a very rural area and have very limited occasional contact with the outside world. It suits me to to do this, I would not advocate it to anyone else. However I am married and have children who are now married and having children, so life goes on , with me in perpetual fear of discovery via google. My daughters in law etc do not know of my conviction.

Your post was very heartening and most welcome.

Can I ask, you stated that your passport had a flag on it? How did you know this? I never met with ppu or signed into police stations etc due to personal friends, but I did with all complete ignorance go to Greece and Spain whilst on the SOR I didn’t know at the time my passport could be flagged!!!! Ignorance is bliss, so they say.

My SOR ended in 2008 my conviction due to a fine as sentence was actually spent in 2004 just 12 months after conviction, hence me now (and impending 30th Wedding Anniversary) getting the courage to face my fate and apply. So if your 10yr rule applies I would stand a chance?

Now, with more knowledge via the unlock community I am able to understand the position better.

I am flying deliberately from Manchester on the 20th June to Krakow Poland in order to test out the Schengen situation and give my wife a well earned break. I do not expect any problems but am praying with all my might that the auto gate accepts my passport. If it does I will feel more confident on applying for an ESTA.If it doesn’t work I may get the chance to question the passport officer to shed any light on if. If he can’t then my plan is to get a new passport claiming damage to the old one.

Will keep you and potential future readers posted.
Thanks again

Jobe

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

JohnL — Mon, 21 May 2018 14:04:33 GMT

Hi Jobe,

Hope it's not too late - I just want to add my experience here.

I fully understand your situation, as indeed I was in it myself. I have the same offense as you (though a caution, not a conviction) for a low number of images on a multi-user PC that was put on me as I owned it. But that's the past and I've made my peace with it.

From what I've read, you have nothing to fear and should travel on an ESTA. I too spent ages in almost a panic about going to the USA or Canada and being turned away at the border, meaning that I would be stuck in North America and also having lost a lot of money on hotels etc. I even turned down work trips for fear of being denied entry with my colleagues beside me... I've been off the SoR for 4+ years now, and have since travelled with no issue to Africa and Europe. When I was on the SoR, my passport used to get flagged when travelling in Europe but not Africa where I used to go regularly for work, which means my passport was flagging on the EU's Schengen Information System that has been discussed in various posts on the forum. However, I asked my PPU to ensure that any alerts were removed when I finished my time and they emailed to confirm that this had been done. Since then, I've had no problem travelling. And recently I travelled to the USA for a holiday and was allowed in having only applied for an ESTA, not a visa. No questions asked at the border.

However, like you, I've read all these stories online of people being denied entry to the US at the border and the US immigration officials magically finding your criminal record. Let me spell out a few things that I've learnt:

1) The USA do not have access to UK criminal records on a general basis. They can only access them on a case by case basis by contacting Interpol, and to do this they would need to suspect you of something. So unless you're acting very jumpy at the border, why would they?
2) The ESTA process checks your passport information against the US watchlists, which as far as I can see is the same things that a US border official will check against when you arrive at the airport. So, apply for your ESTA now. If it comes back approved, then get that trip booked!
3) If the ESTA is not accepted, then you can apply for a visa. HOWEVER, they will not give you a travel visa yet due to the offense, no matter how minor. I cannot find the link anymore, but I did find a checklist which said that you have a CHANCE of getting a visa after you have been 'clear', i.e. your sentence spent, for 10 years. Only then will they even consider giving you one. So if you apply for a visa now, you will have a big stamp in your passport which says that the US denied you a visa and you'll then have to explain why every time you travel.

So I hope that helps. Get that ESTA applied for and you'll feel a lot better. Good luck!

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Fri, 18 May 2018 17:02:03 GMT

Thank You Yankee.

I guess the saying ‘ignorance is bliss’ is most relevant here, Before I began thinking of visas to the usa ( having spent years with the ‘well I didn’t want to go there anyway’ lie) and before I came across sites like unlock etc, I was more confident to just ‘front it out’ and travel.

Now, I am worried about my upcoming Krakow trip although that’s exactly why I am going. It will be just my wife and I and she obviously is aware of everything so if any issues do arise we can deal with them discreetly.

If all goes well, then that would be a blessing. So fingers crossed! Krakow does look lovely and we have sobering(mans inhumanity to man) day trips booked too.

Thanks again for your input.

Jobe

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Yankee — Fri, 18 May 2018 08:24:07 GMT

[quote]

[b]Jobe1287 - 17 May 18 9:17 PM[/b]

Thank You Ben and Yankee.

I am I think looking for monsters under the bed with regards to a green notice on my passport, I have no reason to believe one was ever placed on it, and have had a new passport issued some 5 years after the legal termination of it should it ever have been put on it. I have had a biometric passport since March 2013

That being said my old and new passport have never successfully passed the automated barrier, my daughter in law has a new ish passport and as you rightly say the technology is unreliable she is 2 fail 3 pass at the auto gate currently.

However, I have decided to follow Bens advice. I have booked a 3 night break to krakow starting June 20th. I have not booked my favoured local airport (Liverpool) as it doesn’t have an auto gate, so will be flying from Manchester instead (crap hole airport but great football team 😄) so that I can avail myself of the auto gate on my return.

I intend if it fails again to specifically ask the passport officer why it has done so and if there is anything flagged that would prevent the auto gate working.

I will need a very stiff drink before and after said episode.

Do you think that’s a good idea?

[/quote]

If it gives you comfort that there are no monsters, a great idea. Krakow is a beautiful, albeit small, city so a 3 night break there is also a great idea.

The one other possible explanation is that the digitisation of your passport photograph wasn't quite as good as it should have been so the data points from the facial recognition system are outside the tolerance levels.

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Jobe1287 — Thu, 17 May 2018 21:17:00 GMT

RE: Applying for a USA Tourist Visa - Advice please

Yankee — Thu, 17 May 2018 10:12:05 GMT

[quote]

[b]Yankee - 17 May 18 10:09 AM[/b]

Hi Jobe - if you are concerned that your passport is still flagged for legacy reasons (alert not removed from Schengen information system or a Green notice not withdrawn), why not simply apply for a new passport? You will then have certainty that it's number will not be on a watch list anywhere.

On the automated gates, the technology is still temperamental - when I used them extensively prior to my conviction, i'd say they worked no better than 70% of the time regardless of location.

On having a US visa in your passport - as Ben says, there are many reasons you may have it. If it's any comfort, I have had a US 10 year multi entry visa in my passports for the last 30 years. During that time I've travelled on business and holiday to numerous countries around the world and never once had a question about it. The only question was the US itself when the border agent was curious why I had the visa. 'Embarrasing incident at my batchelor party' - he laughed and I was on my way.

[/quote]

Ironically, for that offence and the sentence (fine), I would pass the ESTA questionnaire today and wouldn't have gone down the visa route. However, having done so all those years ago (when there was no ESTA and I had a job offer thast relied on travel to the US and wanted absolute certainty) I renewed it every 10 years simply to avoid making someone curious why I had one previously but not now ...