theForum » Travel » Travel documentation » Passports » 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

AB2014 — Tue, 25 Sep 2018 11:38:01 GMT

[quote]

[b]BenS - 24 Sep 18 7:58 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Square - 23 Sep 18 8:31 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]BenS - 18 Sep 18 8:38 AM[/b]

I don't have a factual source on what I said about the SISII running by name matches rather than passport numbers. I "learnt" this from another user on here, who asserted this. So it's not gospel, but I would tend to agree with it - otherwise any RSO could simply get a new passport and not report it, then travel freely undetected. It can't be that easy. So it would make sense that it's your name and DOB on the system and not just your passport number. Monkos's example shows this perfectly: people with Arabic names being stopped due to sharing a name with someone on a watchlist. Obviously these innocent trravellers won't have the same passport number as the people on the watchlist but they still flag up - reason: name.

But obviously this is all speculation.

[/quote]

The information regarding SISII can be hound at https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32007D0533
The information stored in the database is:
[quote]

3. The information on persons in relation to whom an alert has been issued shall be no more than the following:

(a)	surname(s) and forename(s), name(s) at birth and previously used names and any aliases which may be entered separately;

(b)	any specific, objective, physical characteristics not subject to change;

(c)	place and date of birth;

(d)

sex;

(e)	photographs;

(f)	fingerprints;

(g)	nationality(ies);

(h)	whether the person concerned is armed, violent or has escaped;

(i)	reason for the alert;

(j)	authority issuing the alert;

(k)	a reference to the decision giving rise to the alert;

(l)	action to be taken;

(m)	link(s) to other alerts issued in SIS II pursuant to Article 52;

(n)	the type of offence.

[/quote]

Details on accessing what SISII alerts are on the UK system for you can be requested (see https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/421540/SISII_General_Information_document.pdf), and you can request disclosure from each member country individually.

[/quote]

Regarding the ability to see SISII information on yourself, the information in that document (and others) and the link simply go to the ACRO website for doing a subject access request on yourself. I.e. a complete extract of your criminal record (spent and unspent). I already have one of these on myself so I know what it looks like - but this surely is different from what is seen on SISII? When you do an ACRO request, you can't see anything specifically relating to SISII, like reasons for an alert, etc. It just goes around in circles and ends up with the ACRO SAR. So I'm not sure if there is actually any way of seeing what SISII has on you.

Or do you specify in the request that you are expressly looking to view your SISII details rather than your general criminal record?

[/quote]

I would expect the SISII information to be a mixture of what ACRO tells you and information held locally, equivalent to the approved information disclosed on an enhanced DBS check. If you apply for copies of both sets of information, that should cover it. As with enhanced DBS checks, I doubt that the police would add any information that is not held either on the PNC or in local files.

3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Harmless — Tue, 25 Sep 2018 11:38:01 GMT

Scenario 1.

I'm in the UK on the SOR.

- On day one, I receive a replacement passport. That same day I declare to police that I'm leaving the country tomorrow
- On day two, I leave.

While I am abroad, the clock is paused on my 3-day obligation to report the new passport, has it not?
And the passport is clean everywhere...

Scenario 2.

I'm abroad, e.g. France

- I order a replacement passport while abroad.

While I am abroad, the clock is paused on my obligation to report the passport, has it not?
And the passport is clean everywhere...

Scenario 3.

Exactly the same as 2, but Gibraltar, and I there order the replacement passport from the office there, while still out from under the SOR registration requirements?

Until I return to the UK the passport is clean is it not?

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

BenS — Mon, 24 Sep 2018 07:58:07 GMT

[quote]

[b]Square - 23 Sep 18 8:31 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]BenS - 18 Sep 18 8:38 AM[/b]

[/quote]

The information regarding SISII can be hound at https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32007D0533
The information stored in the database is:
[quote]

3. The information on persons in relation to whom an alert has been issued shall be no more than the following:

(a)	surname(s) and forename(s), name(s) at birth and previously used names and any aliases which may be entered separately;

(b)	any specific, objective, physical characteristics not subject to change;

(c)	place and date of birth;

(d)

sex;

(e)	photographs;

(f)	fingerprints;

(g)	nationality(ies);

(h)	whether the person concerned is armed, violent or has escaped;

(i)	reason for the alert;

(j)	authority issuing the alert;

(k)	a reference to the decision giving rise to the alert;

(l)	action to be taken;

(m)	link(s) to other alerts issued in SIS II pursuant to Article 52;

(n)	the type of offence.

[/quote]

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Square — Sun, 23 Sep 2018 08:31:26 GMT

[quote]

[b]BenS - 18 Sep 18 8:38 AM[/b]

[/quote]

The information regarding SISII can be hound at https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32007D0533
The information stored in the database is:
[quote]

3. The information on persons in relation to whom an alert has been issued shall be no more than the following:

(a)	surname(s) and forename(s), name(s) at birth and previously used names and any aliases which may be entered separately;

(b)	any specific, objective, physical characteristics not subject to change;

(c)	place and date of birth;

(d)

sex;

(e)	photographs;

(f)	fingerprints;

(g)	nationality(ies);

(h)	whether the person concerned is armed, violent or has escaped;

(i)	reason for the alert;

(j)	authority issuing the alert;

(k)	a reference to the decision giving rise to the alert;

(l)	action to be taken;

(m)	link(s) to other alerts issued in SIS II pursuant to Article 52;

(n)	the type of offence.

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Yankee — Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:11:53 GMT

[quote]

[b]BenS - 18 Sep 18 8:38 AM[/b]

[/quote]

The UK Passport Office system has a marker field that can be flagged by the PPU (as does the DVLA) so that they are notified automatically of any 'activity' such as ordering a new passport or changing a name. I don't know whether this marker is set for every RSO or only those where the PPU assess there is a risk of name change (in one of the police documents I read it discussed risk factors such as a job that required overseas travel, other convictions that had a fraud element,....)

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Harmless — Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:44:24 GMT

[quote]

[b]BenS - 18 Sep 18 10:06 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 18 Sep 18 8:54 AM[/b]

I know an RSO who face to face claimed he just went to Germany undeclared (but using his declared passport) to "see what happened" (his life is so ruined he's just having fun with it now).

Nothing happened, he said.

[/quote]

If he only "just" went to Germany, it might take a while for the Border Force's entry information to be sent to his PPU ...

There is an RSO (more than downloading, served several years in prison) who went to the US on holiday without notifying. He got into the US no problem by ticking "no" on an ESTA, but was arrested on return once the PPU got the information about his arrival from UK Border Force. He was sent back to prison. The story can be found online but I'm not sure I should link it as we all feel the same way about privacy and the Google effect.

As an aside, this would suggest that unless you tell the US about your conviction, you're very unlikely to have a problem when travelling on an ESTA, but it would be best to wait until you no longer to notify under the SOR.

[/quote]

He long ago (maybe 3/4 years ago) went (only\just) to Germany. and then back, with no ill consequences for himself.

Moreover he did it for our benefit! To try and elucidate the actual mechanisms involved and provide us with a data point.

So we him one I guess!

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

BenS — Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:06:08 GMT

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 18 Sep 18 8:54 AM[/b]

[/quote]

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Harmless — Tue, 18 Sep 2018 08:54:29 GMT

[quote]

[b]BenS - 18 Sep 18 8:38 AM[/b]

I don't have a factual source on what I said about the SISII running by name matches rather than passport numbers. I "learnt" this from another use on here, who asserted this. So it's not gospel, but I would tend to agree with it - otherwise any RSO could simply get a new passport and not report it, then travel freely undetected. It can't be that easy. So it would make sense that it's your name and DOB on the system and not just your passport number. Monkos's example shows this perfectly: people with Arabic names being stopped due to sharing a name with someone on a watchlist. Obviously these innocent trravellers won't have the same passport number as the people on the watchlist but they still flag up - reason: name.

But obviously this is all speculation.

[/quote]

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

BenS — Tue, 18 Sep 2018 08:38:00 GMT

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Monkos — Mon, 17 Sep 2018 21:16:54 GMT

[quote]

[b]Zack - 17 Sep 18 8:39 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]BenS - 17 Sep 18 10:32 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:57 AM[/b]

Only UK passport control can see that you are subject to travel notifications, and not even see why (you might be a football hooligan, or a spy). Other passport control in other countries can't see anything about your record unless you have been flagged on interpol. You won't be flagged on interpol unless your crimes specifically involve travelling abroad to commit crimes or you've otherwise given police a reason to suspect you. Or if you've not declared your travel in advance properly.

Maybe it's only the UK passport control who can see specifically that you are subject to travel notifications, but if you're on the SOR and have notified foreign travel to an EU country (plus a few non-EU western European countries), then your passport will "flag" at the border control of any of those countries because your details will have been entered on SISII (Schengen Information System II). Even if they can't see the exact reason for the flag on your passport, they will receive a notification that you are being monitored in some way and they are instructed to ask you a few basic questions discreetly (in reality, it is not always discreet, as staff at some (mainly smaller) airports are unfamiliar with the procedure).

Changing your passport will not remove a flag, because the flag does not relate to your passport, but rather to your personal details such as name and date of birth. So scanning your passport will result in a match for someone with your exact name and date of birth who requires extra attention at passport control.

[/quote]

I'd assumed that SISII just used a match on passport number (hence the requirement to register any new passport). But you're saying when they enter the passport number that it searches for anyone with same name and date of birth, curious how you found that out?

[/quote]

I think it's fare to assume if you get a brand new passport, that at least in the UK system there will be a history of previous passport numbers it's connected to. Similarly if you have same name and DOB as people on a watch list, you'd likely get flagged. After all, you hear all the time about people with muslim type names being stopped simply for having some details matching people on watch lists.

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Zack — Mon, 17 Sep 2018 20:39:24 GMT

[quote]

[b]BenS - 17 Sep 18 10:32 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:57 AM[/b]

[/quote]

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Harmless — Mon, 17 Sep 2018 16:25:17 GMT

[quote]

[b]BenS - 17 Sep 18 10:32 AM[/b]

Changing your passport will not remove a flag, because the flag does not relate to your passport, but rather to your personal details such as name and date of birth. So scanning your passport will result in a match for someone with your exact name and date of birth who requires extra attention at passport control.

[/quote]

What's your source on that?

I recently changed the spelling of my name, dropping an entire middle name (and informed the cops), but my passport bears my old name. But I've never travelled since the name change.

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Harmless — Mon, 17 Sep 2018 16:20:20 GMT

[quote]

[b]BenS - 17 Sep 18 10:32 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:57 AM[/b]

Maybe it's only the UK passport control who can see specifically that you are subject to travel notifications, but if you're on the SOR and have notified foreign travel to an EU country (plus a few non-EU western European countries), then your passport will "flag" at the border control of any of those countries because your details will have been entered on SISII (Schengen Information System II). Even if they can't see the exact reason for the flag on your passport, they will receive a notification that you are being monitored on some way and they are instructed to ask you a few basic questions discreetly (in reality, it is not always discreet, as staff at some (mainly smaller) airports are unfamiliar with the procedure).

Changing your passport will not remove a flag, because the flag does not relate to your passport, but rather to your personal details such as name and date of birth. So scanning your passport will result in a match for someone with your exact name and date of birth who requires extra attention at passport control.

[/quote]

True, but from what Monkos has said here (and I don't know if he' right but sounds well researched), the authorities won't put up an interpol Green Notice(the type they use for the USA) unless they suspect you're going abroad in order to do evil. And even if they're going to put up a notice, they'll tell you in advance rather than let you waste a ticket.

That said, they almost certainly did put up an SISII notice for me in Germany, given how long it took the border staff to stare at their screen. And I'm guessing the cops didn't think I was up to no good there. Although I don't think Monkos was talking about this.

After Brexit won't the Shengen info exchange thing be gone? Isn't that a good thing? Or would they abandon discretion and default to Green Notice always?

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

BenS — Mon, 17 Sep 2018 10:32:33 GMT

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:57 AM[/b]

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Harmless — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 21:52:10 GMT

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 12:14 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 16 Sep 18 10:47 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:57 AM[/b]

- Other passport control in other countries can't see anything about your record unless you have been flagged on interpol. You won't be flagged on interpol unless your crimes specifically involve travelling abroad to commit crimes or you've otherwise given police a reason to suspect you.

- When you return to UK, passport control will ask if you if went anywhere else, and check the pages for stamps while you answer, so answer truthfully.

[/quote]

There's something wrong with these two points of yours, in my experience of travel , and of talking to other ex-cons.

- I'm pretty sure even a domestic sex crime gets in the way of you entering the US, owing to interpol notifications.

- When returning to Glasgow airport from Berlin, I was asked no questions at all. Although I suppose there was nothing in my passport to prompt any questions, as I only took a detour into the Netherlands.

[/quote]

On your first point, you might not get in, if you declare your convictions, and your PPU might not be keen on you going without being sure you got a genuine visa only because they know the americans will complain and get them in trouble if they find out. But it won't be because of any interpol notifications unless your PPU tell you they are putting one because you have genuine reason to give them concerns.

On the second point, if you've been in europe, they know everywhere you've been anyway, and the desk officer might not ask you anything if he's busy even if the 'ask more questions' flag is on. I've only ever been asked additional questions once on returning on over half a dozen trips, but a record of your return still goes on the system with any comments from the desk officer if they made any. But it's nothing to be worried about.

[/quote]

So just so I understand you correctly, there is no possibility of being turned away from the United States because of an interpol notice that the cops never forewarned me about? And no probability of them putting up a notice to the US unless they specifically suspect I'm up to no good by going there?

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Monkos — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 13:35:51 GMT

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 16 Sep 18 12:41 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 12:14 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 16 Sep 18 10:47 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:57 AM[/b]

[/quote]

This is a mainly academic quibble now, but, how can anybody possibly know I was in the Netherlands, seeing as I merely got a train detour to and from there (in an out of Berlin)?

[/quote]

You're right, they can't know that unless you fly or go through some other formal border checkpoint like the eurostar.

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Harmless — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:41:52 GMT

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 12:14 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 16 Sep 18 10:47 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:57 AM[/b]

[/quote]

This is a mainly academic quibble now, but, how can anybody possibly know I was in the Netherlands, seeing as I merely got a train detour to and from there (in an out of Berlin)?

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Monkos — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:14:46 GMT

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 16 Sep 18 10:47 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:57 AM[/b]

[/quote]

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Monkos — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:10:32 GMT

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 16 Sep 18 10:14 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:58 AM[/b]

To be fair if you breach SOR admin requirements, the worst that will happen is you are taken to court and issued a fine.

[/quote]

I'm not so sure about that!

[/quote]

You should be because it's factual. Unless you repeatedly and blatantly do it of course.

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Harmless — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 10:47:48 GMT

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:57 AM[/b]

[/quote]

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Harmless — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 10:14:17 GMT

[quote]

[b]Monkos - 16 Sep 18 9:58 AM[/b]

To be fair if you breach SOR admin requirements, the worst that will happen is you are taken to court and issued a fine.

[/quote]

I'm not so sure about that!

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Harmless — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 10:10:24 GMT

[quote]

[b]Square - 16 Sep 18 9:48 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 15 Sep 18 11:53 PM[/b]

[/quote]

There is no margins of grace. You have been prescribed the time limits and it is your responsibility to abide by them. If you don't, you will be in breach of your SOR notification requirements... you don't want to be in that situation.

If you are in doubt of any requirements you should contact your responsible police officer and get the response IN WRITING.

[/quote]

I'm not seeking margins of grace.

As I understand it, your obligations to the Register are paused when you're abroad, right? How could it be otherwise? Abroad there are no police stations therefore your non-notification is excusable.

Hence why bank cards that land on my doormat while I'm abroad don't get me in trouble. I just declare them within 3 days of getting back to the UK.

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Monkos — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 09:59:54 GMT

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 15 Sep 18 11:53 PM[/b]

[/quote]

P.S. you seem to be confusing SOR requirements and SOPO/SHAPO requirements. The latter is not enforceable when you are abroad. The former relates to how you leave and enter the UK and keep the police informed of your location so does still apply, it's not 'paused'.

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Monkos — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 09:58:17 GMT

[quote]

[b]Square - 16 Sep 18 9:48 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 15 Sep 18 11:53 PM[/b]

[/quote]

To be fair if you breach SOR admin requirements, the worst that will happen is you are taken to court and issued a fine.

RE: 3 Passport scenarios (I assume these are legal, or else that's the question - not seeking criminal advice)

Monkos — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 09:57:32 GMT

[quote]

[b]Harmless - 15 Sep 18 11:53 PM[/b]

[/quote]

you have to give minimum 7 days notice before you travel.

If you lost a passport and had to get an emergency replacement, it would probably be unwise not to email your PPU team with the new details.

When you are abroad, you are under no obligation to report additional flights made before you return and don't have to give notice of them, although you might want to anyway so as to be seen to be honest. The passport itself contains no details of your record. The chip on the passport only contains digital versions of your photo, signature and personal details. Only UK passport control can see that you are subject to travel notifications, and not even see why (you might be a football hooligan, or a spy). Other passport control in other countries can't see anything about your record unless you have been flagged on interpol. You won't be flagged on interpol unless your crimes specifically involve travelling abroad to commit crimes or you've otherwise given police a reason to suspect you. Or if you've not declared your travel in advance properly.

For example, you go to Hong kong declaring a 180 days stay on your notification which is the max visa free stay for a Brit there. While there, you go to some other country at short notice. and another. and another. None of the intermediate flights need to be declared. No warning will be on interpol.

When you return to UK, passport control will ask if you if went anywhere else, and check the pages for stamps while you answer, so answer truthfully. If you didn't drop your PPU an email to tell them what other trips you made then you can expect them to call you to ask a few questions about what you were doing. But ultimately there's nothing they can do to stop you or penalise you, assuming you returned on time or otherwise emailed them to say your changed your return flight, if you also did that.