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no posts for 6 years

Rufus — Mon, 11 May 2020 13:54:36 GMT

sad to see this hasnt had any updates for 6 years

RE: no posts for 6 years

JASB — Mon, 11 May 2020 13:54:36 GMT

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[b]punter99 - 10 May 20 4:28 PM[/b]

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Hi

This reminds me of when I was on licence and I asked my Probation Officer "What do you think the psychologists and mental health experts of that time will think of the treatment methods undertaken by today's experts?"

His reaction was one of asking "why was I in denial of my offence and I should consider my behavior".

RE: no posts for 6 years

Simon1983 — Sun, 10 May 2020 17:09:45 GMT

Spot on

RE: no posts for 6 years

punter99 — Sun, 10 May 2020 16:28:22 GMT

RE: no posts for 6 years

khafka — Sat, 09 May 2020 18:33:56 GMT

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[b]Mr W - 9 May 20 3:43 PM[/b]

In fairness that's probably why they don't state anything. It opens them up to criticism from groups on both sides of the argument, no company is going to say "we'll employ offenders of A, B and C but not , x, y and z." because why actively discriminate when you can discreetly discriminate without any comeback? And as well as having to have reasons as to why A, B and C are "okay" and others "aren't" when they could choose to discreetly discriminate against all law breakers.

This is all treating the symptom not the cause.

The cause is the labels attached with different crimes to the point that it's almost accepted to discriminate against those with certain offences. The labels must stop. A similar point to what JASB makes. Unfortunately, society at the moment is obsessed with labels, especially with binary choices - this or that - Leave/Remain, Red team/Blue Team, Pro-pineapple on pizza/against pineapply on pizza - these things do not matter in the grand scheme of life... but in society they do. To the point where people have become so angry that the opposing side cannot possibly be correct in any possible way ever... EVER!
So take a more simplistic conversation (especially in the mind of an employer... who are human beings too) - law abiders/law breakers - you're one or the other. So in a world of "the other side can't possibly be right EVER", and, for example, if there's no trust in rehabilitation... how can you begin to create any kind of trust with those who have chosen to break the law when you ONLY hear about (unless you properly look for it) those breaking the law always being "bad"... and, to bring it full circle, especially build any trust whatsoever with those who have offences which have that label I refuse to use.

Bottom line is we have to do our best in a very difficult situation and also know that you have the full support of everyone here to be successful.

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Yeah, society is the big issue in how things are perceived. The vast majority don't care about facts in a case, just the overall outcome.

I find it quite interesting and amazing how certain crimes are treated.

For example. It isn't out of the realms of possibility that you could see on the news or some other TV program an ex-drug dealer who spent 10yrs in prison is now out of prison, reformed and actively going around drug rehab facilities to help those vulnerable people. They'd likely get a round of applause.

Now imagine the response for an ex-sex offender who was caught 10 years ago for downloading indecent images going round schools telling the dangers of child predators and how to keep themselves safe?

RE: no posts for 6 years

Mr W — Sat, 09 May 2020 15:43:53 GMT

RE: no posts for 6 years

Simon1983 — Sat, 09 May 2020 13:10:10 GMT

Totally agree, all companies should provide a link on there recruitment pages about there companies recruitment policy

RE: no posts for 6 years

punter99 — Sat, 09 May 2020 11:09:58 GMT

What's annoying is that these companies are not always open about their hiring policies. You have to go through the whole application process first, even disclosing at interview and being told by the interviewer, that your conviction is no problem for them, only to be told a week later; "sorry, but my HR dept says no SO allowed". If they were obvioius about it from the start, by putting a big notice on their website, saying "No Irish, no blacks, no sex offenders", for example, then it might kick off a public debate about the hidden discrimination.

RE: no posts for 6 years

JASB — Fri, 08 May 2020 15:41:16 GMT

Gentleman,
We all demonstrate in our writings the way "politics" are employed by the Government, media, employers and society in general when we read and comment on these matters.
I like you, always seem surprised at the categorization; or is it castration, of us in varying degrees depending on the popularity of the category of offence.

We just have to look at which films, TV shows, to see which are the most popular. So very often the lead character is someone involved in a murder or drugs and is seen as the hero.

When you listen to the radio, say radio 5 or News, channel 4, you see their sympathy measured by what the offence category of an individual being interviewed as an "expert" is when discussing criminal matters? I have never seen on TV or heard the words of EX SO!

You will see the reporter using such understanding and gentle language in their questions, even though; using the example of a drug dealer; there is a high percentage of probability that they manipulated, groomed and targeted young children etc to aid them sell their medicine of destruction and death. Yet there is no "register" and constant "regressive" interview techniques used for them!

There is much more I could write on this matter, and how personal gain allows individuals to preach the morals when it it to their advantage, but ignore them when it is to their advantage! That is for another day.

RE: no posts for 6 years

Mr W — Wed, 06 May 2020 21:07:37 GMT

I can't go into specific details but I am aware of employees having convictions for murder and (large scale) armed robbery that do currently work for Timpsons in England. So, in all honesty, I do have to give them some credit. I don't know all the ins and outs but those keen to work for them with any (perhaps, many rather than any?) offences while on ROTL helps their case, I think.

RE: no posts for 6 years

Simon1983 — Wed, 06 May 2020 19:13:21 GMT

You hit the nail on the head there, one day I hope some one looks in to the money that changed hands when they agreed to put there training academy’s in HMP estates, some one got a back hander, and Timpson’s I guess got the lions share

RE: no posts for 6 years

khafka — Wed, 06 May 2020 17:27:13 GMT

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[b]Simon1983 - 6 May 20 4:45 PM[/b]

Timpson are just too faced, they either support offenders or not, you cant say that a murder on life licence is any less a risk than a registered sex offender, the same goes for an habitual burglar that robs old grannies, it is a know face that re offending rates for RSO is one of the lowest compared to other offences.

[/quote]

Having direct experience with Timpson's recruitment I can confirm...

I feel when they say they hire ex-offenders they don't mean robbers, murderers, sex offenders etc. What they actually mean is someone who had to pay a fine because they got into a drunken scrap on a Friday night.

RE: no posts for 6 years

Simon1983 — Wed, 06 May 2020 16:45:48 GMT

RE: no posts for 6 years

Yankee — Wed, 06 May 2020 16:38:25 GMT

There was a Sunday Times interview with the current Timsons CEO (James Timson) last year.

For 95% it was extremely positive where he highlighted how they believe in giving ex-offenders a second chance, the various prison schemes they support and the number of jobs they have provided.

In the very last paragraph, he was asked if there were any people he wouldn't employ and he said something like 'obviously we won't employ sex offenders, that would be going too far..'

No mention of murderers, drug dealers or any other conviction, just RSOs

RE: no posts for 6 years

JASB — Fri, 01 May 2020 15:08:47 GMT

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[b]Rufus - 30 Apr 20 8:46 PM[/b]

Hi, I meant it was sad that there have been no addition of any companies that are ex offender friendly - this is a sad fact of life

In fact even those that purport to be, are in fact the very opposite

I find reading the comments about the ban the box companies listed on unlock, actively discriminate against those with unspent convictions

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Hi Rufus,

I hope you are OK, safe and it is good you are visiting the forum still.

I can only fully agree with your last post as; sorry for repeating, I have applied for circa 2000 roles and still searching. As previously mentioned, any "headhunting" of me or offers made after F2F interviews were rescinded upon declaration.
As an ex sex offender on the SOR for life/ or till I appeal, I smile when the PPU ask me about my fantasy's. They cannot comprehend my answer; "To get a job"

Keep safe

RE: no posts for 6 years

Rufus — Thu, 30 Apr 2020 20:46:23 GMT

RE: no posts for 6 years

JASB — Mon, 06 Apr 2020 16:05:24 GMT

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[b]Rufus - 3 Apr 20 9:49 PM[/b]

sad to see this hasnt had any updates for 6 years

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Hi
I can agree but it is a sign of our times with image and perception by others being a higher priority; especially in politics.

In some areas rehabilitation beliefs are put to one side. For example the Scotish Government is mentioned due to ex-offenders not being allowed to work in the prison service. Is this because of the above AND the fact they cannot stop existing officers committing offences during their daily work life?

I have been in IT and HR both permanent and contract since leaving the military and have references supporting my skills and experiences. However circa 2000 applications since my offence I am evidence that a conviction - especially a sex conviction - stops employment of all types. My offence was paying for sexual services, no violence, grooming or predatory acts and my only offence.
Working from home or being a contractor does not stop declarations as you can and will be asked by either the agency or the hiring firm.

RE: no posts for 6 years

Simon1983 — Mon, 06 Apr 2020 08:09:29 GMT

Sadly until Society As a whole changes it’s attitude, no matter how may statistics we all look at we will just continue to bang our heads against a brick wall, without the likes of unlock and others continually pushing for change, things could be a lot worse.

society needs to see beyond the conviction of the person in front of them

And this is what ticks me off about the likes of Timpson’s, they bang on and on about social justice and helping ex offenders and other forgotten members of society, but as soon as you mention sex offences to them they shut up shop, its the one offence that if you have they will not touch.

part of there agreement with the prison service when they set up there training academies in the prison system was that they would not have to train sex offenders. as in there view the person convicted of multiply crimes of burglary and theft or even come to mention it manslaughter is much less a risk than a person with a sex offence.

RE: no posts for 6 years

khafka — Sun, 05 Apr 2020 18:52:49 GMT

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[b]Mr W - 5 Apr 20 1:29 PM[/b]

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[b]khafka - 5 Apr 20 11:22 AM[/b]

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[b]Mr W - 4 Apr 20 7:24 PM[/b]

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[b]Rufus - 3 Apr 20 9:49 PM[/b]

sad to see this hasnt had any updates for 6 years

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I presume the difficulty is once one company goes public, especially with millions of people with AND without criminal records looking for work, I'm guessing any company would not only see an influx but potentially negative publicity too (Timpsons handles this well, for example).

One route is to sell skills online. I realise this isn't for everybody, but sites like Fiverr and Upwork don't do any checks, I've earned money on those in the past and being registered as self-employed. Nobody who I've worked for over the past 3 years has asked me to disclose, I'm paid to do the job and if more work comes from it because I've done a good job then I pat myself on the back.

Equally, also, those who ask for people to work from home / remote etc may also not ask for a check, it's worth checking the usual job sites for these because I have seen some. Again this isn't for everyone, but with more and more skills going online, and businesses having less offices and using things like Slack to co-ordinate efforts, there could be opportunities to be found.

I'm not saying it's easy, but hopefully ideas here can go some way to end a six-year chasm.

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I didn't get a job at Timpson's and I'm almost 100% sure it was down to my offence.

I had a phone interview/chat with the area manager, it went great. I then got invited in for a face-to-face interview which went really well and they emphasized experience in the trade isn't needed as they put you through a course all they care about is customer service experience or at least based customer service handling.

Got offered a work trial for a few hours. I went to that, did really well. I was asked about my offence which I was fairly open about.

Then radio silence.

I chased it up a week later and was advised I didn't have enough customer service experience.

Seemingly over looking 15+ years of customer service experience I've got ranging from small part-time shop assistant roles to being a retail store manager in a multi-billion pound company.

It felt like a huge cop-out and I'm convinced it was due to the offence as the tone shifted sharply once that came up that I almost got whiplash.

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Apologies, I meant Timpsons handling very well the publicity/criticism around hiring ex-offenders.
Otherwise, as your story shows, they're by no means perfect.

This also brings into question, once again, the lack of rehabilitation. If employers don't believe in rehabilitation the whole system of checks and pointless arbitrary lengths of time around being 'unspent' needs changing.

As per my suggestion though, if we do have to think differently about employment, the UK has five million people who are self-employed. That's a number that has done nothing but increase for a number of years, so people with or without criminal records are having to create their own jobs to make money (some by choice, of course). I'd be very interested to know the stat on how many of the self-employed do have criminal records.

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Even Timpson's website mentions how they proactively like offering roles to offenders and giving second chances etc.

Who knows; in another branch I might have gotten the job.

I think the biggest change needs to come from public perception. I honestly think in their heart of hearts most employers don't really care if a person is an offender or not but are more concerned about the public outcry of having a registered sex offender at their work in the fear it'd drive off customers etc.

Going by some base statistics. Supposedly around 11 million adults in the UK have a criminal conviction. There is purportedly around 52.4 million adults. That's 21%, nearly a quarter of the entire adult population has a criminal conviction - This isn't taking into account accused people, this purely convicted and sentenced.

I think people would be amazed how many people they see on the street that could have a conviction, perhaps even a terrible one and not bat an eyelid at them but as soon as it becomes public...

As an aside and a fun tidbit - The Scottish Prison Service had an open day at the start of March which I went to. Turns out they supposedly don't hire people with convictions either. Which surely brings the entire Scottish Justice System into disrepute as they're basically confirming they don't feel rehabilitation works so why take a chance?

RE: no posts for 6 years

Mr W — Sun, 05 Apr 2020 13:29:27 GMT

[quote]

[b]khafka - 5 Apr 20 11:22 AM[/b]

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[b]Mr W - 4 Apr 20 7:24 PM[/b]

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[b]Rufus - 3 Apr 20 9:49 PM[/b]

sad to see this hasnt had any updates for 6 years

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RE: no posts for 6 years

Simon1983 — Sun, 05 Apr 2020 12:47:03 GMT

Sadly as much as they bang on about taking people with convictions there are some convictions they just won’t entertain

RE: no posts for 6 years

khafka — Sun, 05 Apr 2020 11:22:35 GMT

[quote]

[b]Mr W - 4 Apr 20 7:24 PM[/b]

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[b]Rufus - 3 Apr 20 9:49 PM[/b]

sad to see this hasnt had any updates for 6 years

[/quote]

RE: no posts for 6 years

Mr W — Sat, 04 Apr 2020 19:24:50 GMT

[quote]

[b]Rufus - 3 Apr 20 9:49 PM[/b]

sad to see this hasnt had any updates for 6 years

[/quote]

I presume the difficulty is once one company goes public about hiring ex-offenders, especially with millions of people with AND without criminal records looking for work, any company would not only see an influx of applications but potentially negative publicity too (Timpsons handles the publicity/criticism fairly well, I think).

One route is to put your skills to use and sell your services online. I realise this isn't for everybody, but sites like Fiverr, Freelancer and Upwork don't do any background checks, it's a rare level playing field. I've earned money on those in the past while being registered as self-employed. Nobody who I've worked for over the past 3 years has asked about my background, I'm paid to do the job and if more work comes from it because I've done a good job then I pat myself on the back.

Companies who advertise jobs for people to work from home / remote etc may also not ask for a check, it's worth checking the usual job sites for these because I have seen some. Again this isn't for everyone but with more and more skills going online, and businesses having less offices and using things like Slack to co-ordinate efforts, there could be opportunities to be found. There's also lots of ideas for side hustles on this page: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/293954

I'm not saying it's easy but hopefully, ideas here can go some way to end a six-year chasm.