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Is this normal?

lotsofquer — Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:13:11 GMT

Hi

I'm only at the start of my journey in that I've been charged but my court date has been moved due to Covid etc etc. Mags court is coming up soon (provided it doesn't move again).

Recently I was denied legal aid as the Legal Aid agency has taken my business earnings for the past 12 months (of which there are really only 4 months of earnings) in to consideration when calculating my eligibility for legal aid. This has taken me over the threshold for legal aid. I don't know if they should be considering these or not - given that they are not my funds but belong to the business. If they are required to be considered then do they need to take in to account the fact that a good portion of these funds are yet to be paid to HMRC in various forms of tax so actually belong to the taxpayer and not me or my business at all? Either way would bring me under the threshold for legal aid.

I did query this with my solicitor who got back to me today and advised that it's going to be 'cheaper to pay privately' (her words). Nothing to address whether the legal aid agency should be or should not be considering these funds.

The costs I've been given are £1000+vat for mags court and $1500+vat for each crown court hearing. She mentioned that there should only be one hearing at crown court which surprised me as I was expecting to be sent away from crown court and a pre-sentence report ordered. I have sent her an email to query this and also query who I'm paying - the court or the solicitors firm (not that I mind which - just would like to know the process).

I guess the questions I have around this being normal are:
Is it normal to have a pre-sentence report or not?
On legal aid
   - should my business earnings be considered as part of the eligibility criteria for legal aid?
   - if they should then should that money owed (but not due) to HMRC be deducted before they take a figure for eligibility?
   - Are the figures I've been quoted actual court fees or are they solicitors fees and actually there may be additional court fees on top of those?

Thanks

RE: Is this normal?

JASB — Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:13:11 GMT

[quote]

[b]CC - 19 Aug 20 8:13 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Mr W - 12 Aug 20 11:56 PM[/b]

Pre-sentence reports are fairly normal and sometimes hugely important, my advice would be to cram in as much positive stuff about your life as possible because there's not room for much of that during sentencing...!
Obviously show you're remorseful, ACTUALLY remorseful because they will see through fake remorse. Talk about what you've done since you stopped offending. Lay it all out there.

The process is uncomfortable though, it is like judge and jury, the woman I had was stern and detailed but she was doing her job. Mine ended with her saying I'd probably get a community order. However, when I came out with a 9 month suspended sentence and a lengthy SHPO - I was in shock. I know the Crown is open to all sentencing but to go from 'probably community order' to hair's width away from being sent down, it was just unreal.

Anyway, you're lucky to get all this advice beforehand, I wish I knew all this back then. You seem convinced you're going away, but if you do, please do come back and tell us what happened when you get out. As all of our experiences matter.

[/quote]

My solicitor went to a lot of trouble with my presentence report getting expert psycholical assessments which among other things assessed my risk as low etc but it was all a complete waste of time. The judge had to have his attention drawn to the report before sentencing me. He just literaĺy flicked through the pages, harrumph loud enough for all to hear and put it to one side with complete disregard. I think he had already made up his mind in my opinion.

[/quote]

Hi

I have spoken about the sentencing hearing previously. In my opinion the processes that hearing adhere to are just about tradition and show for the media and any public attending. Occasionally if an important fact is suddenly presented then that might change the process of that hearing but thats all.
In their chambers prior to the hearing the papers will of been read but also discussions with the defence and prosecution will have been ongoings and results passed to the Judge.

In regard to psychiatric reports they will help you in the future. I had 2 independent which no one will know if they helped me at my sentencing. However they helped tremendously when at HMP Whatton when they assessed me for a course - found not requiring to undertake any course. Again when on licence, Probation attempted again to place me on a course - again found not requiring to undertake any course. When I started to amend my sopo conditions the independent assessments formed the foundation stone for the legal points in my application.

Keep your copies and do not dismiss any supportive evidence.
We must accept that at that hearing the Judge has already decided the sentence prior to seating down.

RE: Is this normal?

CC — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 20:13:38 GMT

[quote]

[b]Mr W - 12 Aug 20 11:56 PM[/b]

[/quote]

RE: Is this normal?

alexh07 — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 03:31:04 GMT

I was just out of uni and starting my first job at £18k. I was initially refused legal aid also on the basis of my savings and had to pay the lawyer for the first 2 hours of work (£360ish). I wrote an appeal trying to explain the reasons that it would cause me undue hardship to pay for the legal bill on a case that would obviously need a lot of work and they granted me it. I lost my job a few months later and the case was reduced from a serious to less serious one so I had to reapply for legal aid but since I didn't bother looking for a job and was on universal credit I had no problems getting it the second time.

Those that work, pay. Those that don't, are given it for free.

RE: Is this normal?

JASB — Fri, 14 Aug 2020 16:20:38 GMT

[quote]

[b]lotsofquer - 13 Aug 20 7:36 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]jcdmcr - 13 Aug 20 12:20 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]lotsofquer - 12 Aug 20 9:32 PM[/b]

[/quote]

Hi, I was also denied legal aid, yes they'll take into account earnings. You should have had a means tested form to complete...?
The figures for a solictor and court fee vary. I had one QC that cost around 1500, and another one that cost around 8000
The presentence report is vital, the judge will normally go off the sentence recommended by the probation officer. I'll dig out a template and post it

[/quote]

Thanks. I didn't actually complete the form - someone at my solicitors office did. I was just asked for a load of information - mostly bank statements
It wasn't the cost I was too worried about it was actually just a question if those were the solicitor fees or court fees or court fees. It sounds like it's the solicitors fees from what everyone has said on here. I'm presuming there may be other fees to pay directly to the court as well? I been quoted anywhere from 8-25k for solicitors who only deal in sexual offences (and don't do legal aid). I went with my current ones soon after I was arrested just because they did legal aid and from their website they seemed to have people who specialise in sexual offences (although not a dedicated sexual offences firm). Looking at it now they're probably just a regular firm that does a bit of everything.

@Mr W
[quote]Anyway, you're lucky to get all this advice beforehand, I wish I knew all this back then. You seem convinced you're going away, but if you do, please do come back and tell us what happened when you get out. As all of our experiences matter.[/quote]
Agreed and I'm grateful for it. I have no issues sharing my experiences coming out the other side so others know what to expect. This being my first brush with the law it's a horrible and terrifying experience not made any easier by my solicitor not really answering all of the questions I have about the process etc so I've just had to work it out for myself as best I can - mostly based on what others have posted on here. The information on here is invaluable.

@JASB
[quote]In the experience I can quote it could be cheaper if it is a guilty plea[/quote]
It will be a guilty plea.

[quote] I would suggest getting an independent psychological report done[/quote]
I have asked my solicitor about this. I need to follow up.

[quote]Also write a letter to the Judge[/quote]
Something I've thought about but haven't started writing. I presume this is only for Crown court rather than mags as well?

[/quote]

Hi
Guilty plea. An accused arrested under my operation made a deal with the solicitors that ended up covering only the basic requirements as he was pleading guilty - think he was £6k total and covered 2 years of time
Letter to Judge: yes before sentencing via your solicitor though they will probably hand it over the day of the trial or a couple of days before. My Judge actually mentioned it.
Psych report. I had one before and after my pre-sentence report was done by Probation and a copy given to them. The PO didn't like I had quoted him as saying non custodial sentence to the Psych though.
There is a organisation in the Cornwall area that is predominantly ex Probation officers and at a cost they assess those who have been convicted or arrested on SO and their assessment to the Court is worthwhile. Expensive (£1500 ish) but depending on your finances etc may be worth it. The solicitor I mentioned uses them.
I can give you the details if you wish.

RE: Is this normal?

Was — Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:48:34 GMT

[quote]

[b]punter99 - 14 Aug 20 11:13 AM[/b]

As for legal aid rules, I wouldn't like to say. Maybe ask the Legal Aid Agency or the Citizens Advice Bureau?

[/quote]

None of the financial facts in my case changed, but I was turned down three times for legal aid before they finally agreed. It was my solicitor who did the chasing. Keep challenging if you think they have it wrong.

RE: Is this normal?

punter99 — Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:13:10 GMT

[quote]

[b]lotsofquer - 13 Aug 20 7:36 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]jcdmcr - 13 Aug 20 12:20 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]lotsofquer - 12 Aug 20 9:32 PM[/b]

[/quote]

There is normally 4 weeks between going to the mags court and the crown court. My solicitor agreed with probation that they would do the pre sentence report during those 4 weeks, so I only had to go to the crown court once. You may want to think about their key question, which is how do you feel about the offence now? That's usually where the interview starts.

You are paying the solictors fees now, but be aware that the court can make an award for the court fees, on top of that.

As for legal aid rules, I wouldn't like to say. Maybe ask the Legal Aid Agency or the Citizens Advice Bureau?

RE: Is this normal?

Mr W — Fri, 14 Aug 2020 01:35:09 GMT

[quote]

[b]AB2014 - 13 Aug 20 11:17 AM[/b]

[quote]

[b]Mr W - 12 Aug 20 11:56 PM[/b]

[/quote]

It seems that some people are sentenced on the day, possibly for lesser offences, but many are adjourned for reports. I suspect that part of the motivation for probation to produce a damning pre-sentence report is to cover themselves, and part is to make it look like they've pulled off an amazing transformation against the odds and turned you into the decent person you already were but which they refused to acknowledge. You can disregard what they say about sentencing, as it's up to the judge. My judge adjourned for six weeks to allow reports to be prepared. The judge then ignored the report....

Another option for judges, which some seem keener on these days is the suspended sentence. Unfortunately, it really screws you up for disclosure, as it's treated as a prison sentence even if the custodial part is never activated.

[/quote]

Good to see you back AB2014. And yes, not only messus up disclosure but even though my custodial part was never activated, and because Australia doesn't recognise concurrent sentences, I'm banned from Australia by a matter of two suspended months which were never activated. Absolutely gutted as I've never been. I can't tell you how much I despise my judge because of what she did on sentencing day.

RE: Is this normal?

lotsofquer — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:36:45 GMT

[quote]

[b]jcdmcr - 13 Aug 20 12:20 PM[/b]

[quote]

[b]lotsofquer - 12 Aug 20 9:32 PM[/b]

[/quote]

RE: Is this normal?

jcdmcr — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:30:05 GMT

RE: Is this normal?

jcdmcr — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:20:03 GMT

[quote]

[b]lotsofquer - 12 Aug 20 9:32 PM[/b]

[/quote]

RE: Is this normal?

JASB — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:39:52 GMT

[quote]

[b]lotsofquer - 12 Aug 20 9:32 PM[/b]

[/quote]

Hi

At the time I was "processed" I was an IT consultant and had a Ltd company. Yes it is correct the bank balances are taken as your assets and so any more over £30k is available to go towards your contributions.
That saying you can (unless rules have changed) can apply for Legal Aid. I did!

Forget about the HMRC as that is not there concern,. Think of it like a wife divorcing you, she doesn't care about your quality of life or bills etc as any defaults is someone else's responsibility to get the money from you.

Tip, if you get a big bill and they pass it onto an agency to collect the monies - forget the name - just talk to the agency and say you can afford only £20 a month. I was inside and did this and relieve pressure on me until my release where I continued paying the same amount - until I won my appeal against the costs attributed to me.

In the experience I can quote it could be cheaper if it is a guilty plea from the start as the process may only be i.e maj Court, Plea hearing and sentencing but cut a deal if going for that. Remember you would be reducing their effort and time and would probably use a paralegal for most of the work so check who and what the invoice entails.
If you are concerned about your solicitor I can recommend the following person and no I do not get cashback or anything else lol. the link will show his history especially with image offences, SOPO etc.
http://www.andrewstorchsolicitors.com/our-people/michael-phillips/

I actually had two pre-sentence reports as the Prob Officer's manager felt the first one I signed was too lenient and so had to be amended for me to sign again. Depending on your finances I would suggest getting an independent psychological report done, talk to Mike Phillips as this could support you. Also write a letter to the Judge, not challenging the evidence but more on your regret, effects and how you will reform and ask for leniency. If nothing else it will show you have started your rehabilitation

RE: Is this normal?

AB2014 — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:17:18 GMT

[quote]

[b]Mr W - 12 Aug 20 11:56 PM[/b]

[/quote]

RE: Is this normal?

Mr W — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:56:56 GMT

RE: Is this normal?

xDanx — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 22:20:42 GMT

[quote]

[b]lotsofquer - 12 Aug 20 9:32 PM[/b]

[/quote]

From my understanding, it is normal to have a pre-sentence report produced. This usually happens by Probation. In my case I was brought to Crown Court twice. First time was supposed to be my sentencing but due to probation "cocking up" as my barrister called it. Judge delayed my sentencing and asked for a report to be made before I can be sentenced. The report is basically just some background information about your past, difficulties, reason for offending ect. The woman I spoke to was not nice at all and was basically acting like a prosecutor, jury and judge all in one. She made it very clear that I should be facing a custodial sentence which I do not think she was suppose to be doing. Unfortunately to her but fortunately to me, she got into an accident and could not finalize the report so another meeting was made for someone else to produce the report. If you are going to be charged for each crown court hearing I would make sure this is done before your day in court. They probably delay these reports on purpose to 1, get media attention as soon as possible 2, to impose further costs up on you.

As for the costs of solicitors I can not really advise. I do feel the points you have raised make a lot of sense though.

RE: Is this normal?

Hola — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 22:18:38 GMT

[quote]

[b]lotsofquer - 12 Aug 20 9:32 PM[/b]

[/quote]

Sorry to be blunt, but personally, having been through the process, I wouldn't be worried about who should pay what. Go with your instinct and pay whatever you can, if you can, to avoid jail. Long term IMO that pays off, so if you feel you have a good solicitor go with it