theForum » Disclosing your criminal record » Disclosing the criminal record of a partner » When might you need to disclose the criminal record of a partner » Disclosure by association

RE: Disclosure by association

Zack — Wed, 09 Dec 2020 06:53:51 GMT

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[b]punter99 - 8 Dec 20 11:11 AM[/b]

If they intend to disclose to someone, the police have to demonstrate that there is a risk of harm and say who is at risk. If they can establish that there is an under 18 somewhere, then they will argue that child is at risk, simply by them being a child. Since some offenders do abuse kids who are the children of friends, then arguably any friend, or anyone you have any contact with at all, who has kids, is at risk. Of course the police would also want to look at what access you have to the friend's kids. Do you ever visit the friend's house for example, or is just a friend that you meet at the local pub for a drink occasionally.

How far the police would go, in practice, to establish this depends on what the police already know about you and what they can find out. If they have already seized your mobile, then they could go through and identify all your contacts, then check to see if they had kids or not. But rather than take the time to do that they will most probably ask you first to provide details of your friends.

If you then choose not to disclose those details, which is your right, then the police would have to decide whether the risk you pose justifies further investigation. In an extreme case, if they thought your risk was really high, they could place you under covert surveillance, to see where you go and who you mix with. We've seen some people on this forum talk about being followed around by the police, so it does happen.

So knowing that the police have this power, you have to make a judgement call yourself. Do I tell the police about my friends and hope they don't disclose to those friends or do I keep the friends details to myself and hope the police don't find out about them.

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[b]xDanx - 7 Dec 20 3:40 PM[/b]

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[b]Was - 6 Dec 20 10:35 AM[/b]

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[b]xDanx - 5 Dec 20 9:37 PM[/b]

So you are saying there is no law for police preventing them from informing an individuals employer that they are in a relationship with a sex offender? Despite having no convictions of their own? What about article 8 rights to a private life?
Although your example is correct, your example only refers to the individual who is a sex offender. Not someone who is associated or in a relationship with someone who is a sex offender.

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There is no law that prevents them from informing anyone. Under Multi-agency public protection arrangements (MAPPA) rules they, in theory, have to be able to justify it under the Human Rights Act, but in practice you would have to take them to court and they know a registered offender is unlikely to want the publicity.

[quote]Section 327A: Disclosure of information about convictions etc. of child sex offenders to members of the public. This section:
Requires the Responsible Authority to consider disclosing information about the previous convictions for sexual offences against children of a child sex offender to a member of the public.
Creates a presumption in favour of disclosure (even if no-one has requested it) if the child sex offender poses a risk of serious harm to any children and disclosure is necessary for their protection.
Empowers the Responsible Authority, in making disclosure to a particular person, to impose conditions preventing any further disclosure.
Requires the Responsible Authority to record its decision whether or not to make disclosure in each case. [/quote]

Whilst most people would interpret that in its normal sense, it does not say that they are restricted to only notifying members of the public directly related. The police can justify basically any interpretation they want using "necessary for their protection". I have no restrictions on associating with under-18s (apart from the standard SRO 12 hours at a single location) but they still decided that they were going to disclose and talk to all my sisters anyway.

You can make a formal complaint, but that would be after the horse has bolted.

There are numerous things that my local PPU have done which are nominally unlawful (such as my PPO suggesting that I make a fraudulent PPI claim!) but that is not the same as it being illegal.

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It just does not seem right to me at all that police can interfere in someone else's life just because there in a relationship with a sex offender, especially when there are no under 18s involved and have no convictions of their own. Again we go back to the whole guilty till proven innocent saying. Is this why my PPO asks for friends details and where they work? So he can make a decision on whether they need to inform their employers that they are essentially friends with a sex offender?

When it comes to relationships I can understand the need for disclosing convictions and sharing partners details on the basis that it is likely more than 7 days will be spent at the partners home. What about normal friendships, What authority do police have asking me to provide personal details of those I am friends with? with or with-out their consent? Am I correct in saying police only have rights to obtain personal details of those they suspect of committing a crime? And as such, suspect those I am friends with because of association?

I have looked but again, I am not able to find anything specifically relating to these topics. Most likely I am not choosing my words correctly so if there is any legislation could someone post it?

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Generally the last thing a PPO wants to do is to start telling everyone about the offender, it makes their job harder if lots of people in a community know the details. They generally want an easy life. As for an employer, even if he was told, your employer would have to tread carefully, they have a duty of care to you and they have to legally respect data protection - they can't without good reason start telling colleagues or patients. I'd imagine they would have to do a risk assessment, unless you have patients come to your home, or keep records at home I can't see how it is at all relevant what your partner has done. If I was you, I would speak to the PPU directly and ask why he wants your employer to know, and see if he is misunderstanding things on how your work and personal life interact. It may just be that he wants reassurance that patients do not come to your home, a you do not share patients records with your partner. And that you agree to ensure that never happens.

Disclosure by association

Mamacita — Wed, 09 Dec 2020 06:53:51 GMT

I am a qualified nurse who was visited by the PPO and given a disclosure about my partners offences, which he has served his sentence for. This is a very complex situation as I have all the legal documents which state that my partner is a low risk to the community and has a low risk of reoffending, but is a medium risk to children. I dont have any children under 18. The PPO have basically threatened to inform my employer if I carry on in a relationship with him. My question is that this is my private life. I'm not a risk or an offender. Can the PPO inform my employer? My partner is not my patient. Im absolutely devastated by the intrusion.

RE: Disclosure by association

punter99 — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 11:11:34 GMT

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[b]xDanx - 7 Dec 20 3:40 PM[/b]

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[b]Was - 6 Dec 20 10:35 AM[/b]

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[b]xDanx - 5 Dec 20 9:37 PM[/b]

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RE: Disclosure by association

Was — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 09:41:16 GMT

xDanx

It's my understanding that a meeting with a PPO is not under caution. You can refuse to answer a question, or even lie. It might harm what level category they put you in but it is not against the law.

RE: Disclosure by association

AB2014 — Mon, 07 Dec 2020 15:58:10 GMT

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[b]xDanx - 7 Dec 20 3:40 PM[/b]

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[b]Was - 6 Dec 20 10:35 AM[/b]

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[b]xDanx - 5 Dec 20 9:37 PM[/b]

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Don't forget to factor in the public attitude towards people convicted of sexual offences. It wouldn't happen to any other category of offender, because they generally aren't supervised by the police. As I said before, it comes down to an evaluation of the police's duty of public protection against the rights of the individual. Don't forget their urge to cover themselves in case anything goes wrong. Even though it wouldn't....

RE: Disclosure by association

xDanx — Mon, 07 Dec 2020 15:40:15 GMT

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[b]Was - 6 Dec 20 10:35 AM[/b]

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[b]xDanx - 5 Dec 20 9:37 PM[/b]

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RE: Disclosure by association

AB2014 — Mon, 07 Dec 2020 15:08:14 GMT

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[b]xDanx - 5 Dec 20 9:37 PM[/b]

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[b]Was - 5 Dec 20 4:28 PM[/b]

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[b]xDanx - 5 Dec 20 4:13 PM[/b]

I may have missed it but where exactly does it say police have authority to disclose a partners conviction to their employer?

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They have as much authority as anyone attending a public sentencing can inform an employer. There is no law against it.

An example, Facebook - a commercial company, has in their terms and conditions that a registered sex offender cannot use their platform. It is not against the law to continue using their platform. You are not committing an offence if you register a new account after they have deleted your account although you are breaching their terms and conditions. The police even acknowledge this. However the PPU will, as a matter of policy, inform them anyway and your account will be deleted.

Try not to confuse what the police are entitled to do in law with what any "concerned citizen" (which they no doubt count themselves as) with no other authority could also do.

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This does not apply to people in all occupations. In this case, the occupation is covered by what used to be called "notifiable occupations". It is based on someone being in "a profession or occupation which carries special trust or responsibility, in which the public interest in the disclosure of conviction and other information by the police generally outweighs the normal duty of confidentiality owed to the individual". You can make your own minds up about the wrongs and rights of that.

RE: Disclosure by association

Was — Sun, 06 Dec 2020 10:35:32 GMT

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[b]xDanx - 5 Dec 20 9:37 PM[/b]

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RE: Disclosure by association

xDanx — Sat, 05 Dec 2020 21:37:16 GMT

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[b]Was - 5 Dec 20 4:28 PM[/b]

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[b]xDanx - 5 Dec 20 4:13 PM[/b]

I may have missed it but where exactly does it say police have authority to disclose a partners conviction to their employer?

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RE: Disclosure by association

Was — Sat, 05 Dec 2020 16:28:31 GMT

[quote]

[b]xDanx - 5 Dec 20 4:13 PM[/b]

I may have missed it but where exactly does it say police have authority to disclose a partners conviction to their employer?

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RE: Disclosure by association

xDanx — Sat, 05 Dec 2020 16:13:42 GMT

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[b]Mamacita - 3 Dec 20 11:38 AM[/b]

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You say your partner has served his sentence, I assume that means he has either served his time in prison or, served the suspended sentence and is now on license with probation with a SOPO/SHPO? if so how long does he have left? I honestly do not understand if he is considered a medium risk to children, how can he be a low risk to society?

In regards to disclosures and after reading the link AB2014 provided, I may have missed it but where exactly does it say police have authority to disclose a partners conviction to their employer? I have tried searching for laws relating to instances such as Mamacita's but so far I'm not seeing anything definitive. Everything I have found all relate to disclosures on those WITH the conviction and not those in association. So how can the PPO interfere in someone else's life when they are not the one with the conviction?

If in doubt I would seek legal advice about this before you make any decision

RE: Disclosure by association

JASB — Sat, 05 Dec 2020 08:53:41 GMT

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[b]Was - 4 Dec 20 8:34 PM[/b]

I'm not going to get into details but some of my friends have made what for them were clearly tough decisions which I respect. Others have been complete ****ers.

I guess all I'm saying is that there is no "correct" decision you can make, only what you think is best for you at the time. It may turn out to be not the right one, or absolutely justified. No-one else can do that for you.

You only owe yourself.

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Agree,

It is not selfish to think of one's wellbeing first or as I have previously said but in different words [quote]How are you be able to care for others if you have not cared for yourself and so lack the wellbeing you are trying to ensure others have?[/quote]

Mr W is correct so I am sorry my words sound harsh, but I have made the decision that as the offender, my mistakes should not remove the hopes, ambitions or prospects of another, no matter the pain.
Whatever your decision, be brave in making it, do it for honest and personal reasons that you know you can live with as be it "stay" or "go" it will change your life.

RE: Disclosure by association

Was — Fri, 04 Dec 2020 20:34:49 GMT

RE: Disclosure by association

JASB — Fri, 04 Dec 2020 19:20:27 GMT

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[b]Mamacita - 3 Dec 20 4:25 PM[/b]

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[b]khafka - 3 Dec 20 11:43 AM[/b]

Yup. At least in Scotland they can, I imagine it'd be the same elsewhere in the UK.

Only certain job roles would your employer be advised, such as a teacher, nurse, doctor, social care. Basically anywhere he could get potentially have access to children and/or vulnerable people is how it was all worded to me. If you worked as a shelf-stacker in Tesco for example it'd be unlikely they'd need to inform them.

To me, it is utter crap as there is no logic or data backing up the reasoning but such is a life of a sex offender. It is just another reason why a lot don't tend to get into relationships after being convicted. Why should someone else unrelated to the offence have their life invaded like this?

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Well, it's a very sad state of affairs, because I dont think he knew the implications this could potentially have on my life. I'm trying to explain to him about the severity, and it's no easy task. I do not understand why an unrelated offence committed by someone else should impact on my private life. It's not fair.

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Hi
Me again. Look at the offence from the eyes of the victim(s), those protecting societies most vulnerable, to understand what they are trying to achieve. Also they are protecting themselves from any possibility of society criticizing them.
How do they know if your partner would not pressure you into something- the risk is there because of past offences show it is. That is not a silly concept as it has happened and been reported on in the media.

Saying "It's not fair" is emotional and I believe your current scenario is making you say them. Remember laws are generalised and not individual circumstances based as they are not founded on emotions; it is up to those they give guidance to or interputate them to decide how to enforce them that make them emotional.
Do not be angry at those enforcing the rules, instead see if they can be challenged and you would take that stand publically; if you are able to view them in a non-emotional perceptive.[quote]Many laws on their creation serve the purpose of their design and are praised. It is those that manipulate them to meet their aims allow them to be criticised [/quote]

RE: Disclosure by association

JASB — Fri, 04 Dec 2020 19:02:26 GMT

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[b]Mamacita - 3 Dec 20 1:36 PM[/b]

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[b]JASB - 3 Dec 20 1:06 PM[/b]

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[b]Mamacita - 3 Dec 20 11:38 AM[/b]

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Hi

As AB2014 quite rightly said, they have the right.
First I must applaud your acceptance of your partners past and willingness to maintain a relationship.

Please remember at this difficult moment there is no advantage in allowing your emotions to focus about the right or wrongs of this else you will dissolve into a person of resentment.

The only advice I can offer is that you must be open, not only to your employers but I would suggest also to yourself about your future with your partner. I am sorry for saying that but from my own experience I found answering that delicate question allowed me to move forward whilst protecting those individuals my offence none intentionally affected. In my case it was my sister who worked in such a role that disclosure was required.
To clarify she informed her employers about my offence and also informed them that though she still wished to support me, and that there was no association between us that would affect her employment responsibilities. They accepted her words and supported her through the obvious emotional and stress that followed in the media.

I decided for her that she should take those actions as I did not wish her to become a further "victim" and so punished by a society etc that condemns though not aware of the true facts or scenario of the offence.

It is a hard decision you have to make; but you must as they may be many more times this choice will have to be made. Only you know the strength of your relationships be they personal and professional; you have the evidence so consider that wisely.

Best advice I was given was [quote]The right decision is the hardest option to you.[/quote] I just wished I had considered that when I made the choice to offend.

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Wow, very informative answers. Thankyou.
If a man has no hope, he has nothing left to fight for and that makes me feel very sad. On one hand, I have to consider myself and protect my future and by doing that, I'm taking away some bodies hope and future. And on my other hand, if I stay, I could potentially risk my career that I have worked very hard to achieve.
I know what I have to do, but I will have to live with taking some bodies hope away, which will stay on my conscience for a very long time.

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Hi
First, I would suggest in this case their hope is not your responsibility or in other words your "prime concern". As I tell my mother, if she worries herself to death then she will not be here, which increases the victim impact on me, and more importantly I have denied her an ending to a life that should be one of content in knowing she tried her best and cannot control my decisions.
There are time when giving your quality and ambitions / desires away are praiseworthy e.g. in a life or death scenario. This is not one of those.
Ask him what he would do if the situation was reversed, but be wary of an his answer because the possible reply may lean to his emotions of loss, self pity etc. I do not know him but my words are aimed at trying to ensure you consider yourself first.

Think, you may say you will stay with him and have a great life. Then he has an affair, decides he wants something else you don't. It could be anything that after everything you have given up for him would do untold emotional damage to you. What would you do/think then? Could you handle that? A person says they will always be good, but even the best of us makes mistakes.
You may part but stay friends not partners, then the disclosure situation changes. His journey and the barriers he will face can only be taken by him. You can still give support at a distance,

Life is full of changes and emotions but we humans are barely qualified to understand never mind handle all that they throw at us. You sound like you have so much to give, and others will be listening and hoping they will receive your focus. You will already of passed so much onto your partner but maybe the old "adage" - You can say goodbye more easily if you love a person than if you do not. Simply because you can be honest to them - is true.

RE: Disclosure by association

Mamacita — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 16:25:39 GMT

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[b]khafka - 3 Dec 20 11:43 AM[/b]

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RE: Disclosure by association

Mamacita — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 13:36:57 GMT

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[b]JASB - 3 Dec 20 1:06 PM[/b]

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[b]Mamacita - 3 Dec 20 11:38 AM[/b]

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RE: Disclosure by association

JASB — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 13:06:59 GMT

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[b]Mamacita - 3 Dec 20 11:38 AM[/b]

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RE: Disclosure by association

AB2014 — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 12:13:40 GMT

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[b]khafka - 3 Dec 20 11:43 AM[/b]

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Unfortunately, being a nurse means you are in what used to be called a "notifiable occupation". Since 2017, the police in England, Wales and Northern Ireland have the right to disclose to employers in circumstances like yours. As khafka said, there are similar arrangement in Scotland. I'm sure we all realise that neither you nor your partner would never pose a threat to children or anyone else, but that's not how the system sees it.

RE: Disclosure by association

khafka — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 11:43:25 GMT