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Having a conviction whilst in University

Hobbit — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Its sadly the way of life in here, people like to put the past well behind them and just to be treated like the next human being but as we quickly find this is not the case at all.

There is countless debate on this very forum about the lie, some suggest would anyone disclose information that is not relevant or required for the suitable position being asked?

If your applying for a job in Tesco, what would a criminal conviction being mentioned and discussed do for that job position.... it should in theory be about that persons skills and qualifications, but its about convictions, skills and qualifications now.

The ROA is there to help but its still out of date and its anyone's guess if it will come into play this November, it was delayed before so can easily happen again but we can always hope.

I feel people on this forum have it suggested right and your correct also, if the question does not come up then just like any human being no one would reveal there secrets or past to anyone, that is personal and private information after all. If the questions requested or required for the suitable position or place then it must be disclosed, but you always have a choice to disclose or not to.

Having a conviction whilst in University

EDDIE — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Thanks for the reply, I did make enquiries with the university through the student officer however they could not really answer my query, they stated that the matter was sometime ago so my son just carried on with his studies in University. During the summer months he has undertaken work experience with a large company. When he went for an interview with them we discussed how we would deal with disclosing his conviction. The question was never asked on his application form, however I thought he should disclose it during interview, I did ring his probation office however they would not provide any guidance stating that it was down to the individual? We prepared how he would broach the subject if he was asked had he a criminal conviction however on the day of the interview he was never asked and he did not make mention of it, he told me that he didn't want to make mention of it. I had to respect his decision. His work experience has gone well and he is now returning to university for his final year in studies. There is a possibility that this company might offer him employment next year and the question of any criminal convictions might come up. I am hoping though that by this time the ROA will have be changed and that his conviction will become spent. I hope that this will be in November, however I have not seen anything on the forum giving an update on the implementation. I was planning on writing to my MP during September to ask about it. I know a lot of people are also asking, I don't really want to be another enquirer, I would like to know though what is going on. Having read a number of threads about disclosing conviction I think my view now is that he should only disclose when asked or there is a requirement to do so. I think volunteering it might cause problems, some people might disagree.

Having a conviction whilst in University

xl — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Hi Eddie,

Am I correct in that he is already enrolled on the course, furutre enrollement is just extending his period of stay and usually less of a drawn out process that the initial enrollement / acceptance onto the course. For an engineering course he will have initially been asked to disclose any un spent convictions, I should imagine he will not be asked again. I also imagine that someweher written in the uni policies will be a requirement for him to disclose if he occurs a conviction during the period of his studies. This probably wasnt made clear at the time and he could quite easily plead ignorance iin this case. If is his convcition is now spent he will no longer need to disclose anyhow. He will odds on no longer be asked the "question" and this now boils down to it just merely being a battle with his conscious to do the right thing and following university policy.

Having a conviction whilst in University

d211q2 — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Presumably the University will have some sort of handbook on student conduct which may provide some clarification.

I was convicted not at University, but at work with quite a thorough and comprehensive staff handbook. However, whilst it had a large section on recruitment policies to do with CRB checks (who needed them, and other posts who had to declare unspent convictions) and the like, it was completely silent on members of staff in non-CRB positions (as I was). Therefore, I did not declare it.

My wife, on the other hand, works somewhere where the staff policy states that any conviction obtained during employment must be declared to HR (she does not work in a CRB-needed position), and had I been at her company when convicted, I would have done so.

In the instance of the original poster's son at university, I would advocate obtaining the policy, and sticking to whatever it advises.

Having a conviction whilst in University

My Name is Geraldine... — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Do not disclose it, there is absolutely no need, unless of course it is risk averse such as sex offending, or the course needs to know eg medicine, social work etc, in which case get a good lawyer and win any conduct panel which challenges him, I did. Thousands of students have cr's and say nothing.

Having a conviction whilst in University

Eustace — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Emsi said...
Hi,

I'm really hoping someone can give me some advice who knows how the "inside track" works on these matters. I'm trying to get a place on a healthcare related degree course at uni which requires CRB disclosure both to the university and to the regulatory board of that profession. I have a caution and a conviction for thefot - conviction was 2 years ago.

I've contacted the uni to try and understand what the procedure is for declaring, who at the uni is the decision maker etc. I've also given them specific details about my case and asked them the give me an idea as to whether I would be accepted or not on that basis. Nobody seems to want to give me any straight answer about anything. I also got the impression that staff has little training or experience in dealing with these matters. Nobody is willing to tell me who at the uni or in the department is actually responsible for saying 'yes' or 'no'. Nobody is willing to tell me to whom I actually need to declare or at what stage of the admissions process or to whom I need to give details. They keep skirting the issues and talking about academic requirements and how they change - I exceed their academic requirements yet they keep focusing on that rather than giving me a straight answer about the convictions. It makes me wonder if they would change the academic goal posts and say it was because I didn't meet the academic requirements or failed an interview rather than come clean and admit that they were rejecting me because of the CRB.

Why is it all so cloak and daggar? Why can't there be blanket guidelines depending on the type of work it is? Why are decisions on these matters left up to unis or employers - who are totally subjective? Someone said to me recently that people are people, not machines and their own opinions and prejudices always colour their decisions - there is no such thing as objectivity! How can someone have a fair interview and really sell themselves whether it be for a place at uni or for a job when at some point in the interview they have to talk about their criminal record?! There has got to be a better system which protects vulnerable people but also gives ex-offenders a fair shot at a uni place or a job!

Is there anyone who has any experience of applying to courses like medicine, dentistry etc who has cautions and convictions for minor offences. If so it would be great to hear from you. Does anyone have insider knowledge of how it all works and how feasible it is getting jobs in these professions at the end of uni when you have cautions convictions etc?

Any info or insights would be great

Emsi,

I should begin by making it clear that I do not have any experience of applying for courses in medicine and dentistry and the like, but I think I can assist you with some guidance, and since no-one else has replied, let me try and help.

First, although DBS checking is common in these types of situations, I always think it's best that you at least wait until the conviction is spent (if it is not spent already). That way, although the conviction will still come up in the checks, at least the situation is a bit more in your favour and you can, compellingly, argue that you've done your time and served out the rehabilitation period without further incident, it was all very stupid but you've matured and moved on and you now lead a stable life, and you've been volunteering in your community and helping at an old age people's home and blah, blah, blah ad naseum. Put yourself in the shoes of an admissions tutor at one of these places. If you're going to work in healthcare, then a conviction for dishonesty is bad news. Fraud is a major problem in the NHS, especially prescription fraud - or at least, that's what the Daily Mail says. You need to consider whether you are making a rod for your own back here.

On the other hand, if this is what you want to do and you can't wait out the rehabilitation period because it's too long to wait, or the conviction is spent anyway, or whatever, OK fine. The first problem I would have is the way you are approaching this with the university. That's not a criticism of you. What you've done is understandable, but it's also wrong. In this type of situation, people will often give you advice such as: "Ring them up and see what they say about it", as if the employer or university is a call-centre standing-by waiting for your call. Like they have nothing better to do, huh? What's forgotten in this kind of advice is reality. In reality, the university is not an advice centre catered for your bespoke needs and they do not want to hear from you or answer your questions. They neither have the time nor resources. The glossy brochures may say otherwise and tell you how friendly they all are and that Professor Spottingborough's door is always open and all that crap. They may even have been nice to you at open day, but none of that is reality. In reality the door is firmly shut to you. You have a criminal record and therefore you are not a desirable applicant. But, this is not an insurmountable problem. You can overcome this, but the way to tackle it is not to lean on other people, but to take control of your own future, on your terms, and try and turn yourself into a desirable applicant.

One approach is what I outline in the previous paragraph: i.e. wait out the rehabilitation period and reinvent yourself through volunteering in healthcare where possible (your record should not stop you finding low-level work somewhere in healthcare or a related area such as mental health, youth work or social work, even something voluntary). Plus you can use the time to obtain other related qualifications - maybe do a FT or PT course at the same university in a closely-related subject that does not require DBS checks. You can also build up professional contacts and relationships who will give you character references. And you can just generally keep out of trouble, developing a more mature attitude in the process.

Another approach - and one that you might prefer - is that you tackle the problem of your university entrance now, head-on. But to do this I would not bother contacting the university's staff. By contacting them, you are just making a nuisance of yourself and you are also sending a signal to them that you might lack initiative in that you can't negotiate the obstacles on your own but need to lean on an adult. And giving them details of your case outside of the application process is possibly career suicide, as there will be no context to consider the information and so it won't create a favourable impression. For these reasons, you might also want to consider backing-up your application by applying to other institutions, as you might have compromised your chances with the university you have been talking to. The DBS check is a red herring in all this because by the time they carry out the criminal records check, if they do, then it's a formality only as you should have already declared the criminal conviction to them in the application form anyway, if you're honest. The only purpose of the DBS check, then, is to confirm that you indeed have been honest.

All the information about criminal disclosure for this university, and whether they or the relevant healthcare regulator is to carry out DBS checks, and at what stage, should be in the application materials and on their website. If it isn't, then re-read it. If it's still not there, then direct me to it if it's on the web and I'll find it. If your healthcare subject involves a 'controlled activity' (not all do, but most will), you will always be asked about your record as part of the application form, so the question will be there somewhere on the application form. You must answer the question honestly. You will also be asked to explain the offence. That is an opportunity to provide mitigating information that will put you in as favourable a light as possible. I would find out the university's policy on criminal disclosure before writing this (it should be on the web, but if not send the university or the department an anonymised e-mail and ask for a PDF copy of the document). You can also, if you wish, run the wording of your mitigating statement past me and I can offer suggestions. But then it is up to the university to decide whether you are accepted.

Post Edited (Eustace) : 23/02/2013 00:27:40 GMT

Having a conviction whilst in University

Emsi — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Hi,

I'm really hoping someone can give me some advice who knows how the "inside track" works on these matters. I'm trying to get a place on a healthcare related degree course at uni which requires CRB disclosure both to the university and to the regulatory board of that profession. I have a caution and a conviction for thefot - conviction was 2 years ago.

I've contacted the uni to try and understand what the procedure is for declaring, who at the uni is the decision maker etc. I've also given them specific details about my case and asked them the give me an idea as to whether I would be accepted or not on that basis. Nobody seems to want to give me any straight answer about anything. I also got the impression that staff has little training or experience in dealing with these matters. Nobody is willing to tell me who at the uni or in the department is actually responsible for saying 'yes' or 'no'. Nobody is willing to tell me to whom I actually need to declare or at what stage of the admissions process or to whom I need to give details. They keep skirting the issues and talking about academic requirements and how they change - I exceed their academic requirements yet they keep focusing on that rather than giving me a straight answer about the convictions. It makes me wonder if they would change the academic goal posts and say it was because I didn't meet the academic requirements or failed an interview rather than come clean and admit that they were rejecting me because of the CRB.

Why is it all so cloak and daggar? Why can't there be blanket guidelines depending on the type of work it is? Why are decisions on these matters left up to unis or employers - who are totally subjective? Someone said to me recently that people are people, not machines and their own opinions and prejudices always colour their decisions - there is no such thing as objectivity! How can someone have a fair interview and really sell themselves whether it be for a place at uni or for a job when at some point in the interview they have to talk about their criminal record?! There has got to be a better system which protects vulnerable people but also gives ex-offenders a fair shot at a uni place or a job!

Is there anyone who has any experience of applying to courses like medicine, dentistry etc who has cautions and convictions for minor offences. If so it would be great to hear from you. Does anyone have insider knowledge of how it all works and how feasible it is getting jobs in these professions at the end of uni when you have cautions convictions etc?

Any info or insights would be great

Having a conviction whilst in University

EDDIE — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

I was contacted by the Student Support team with University Registry who had made enquiries but could not really answer my question. As I have mentioned above they seem to be only interested if the conviction would affect your Fitness to practice, gave examples of medicine nursing, where there is professional registration where the conviction would have to be disclosed. I did ask about when he enrolled whether there would be a question on the enrolment form asking whether he had any convictions however they were unable to answer this. Will have to wait and see if they have any further information?

Having a conviction whilst in University

EDDIE — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Hi thanks for the replies, I rang student support today at the university to ask what the position would be. They weren't able to give me an answer. They asked about my sons course stating that it was not one that requires you to disclose convictions, however they were unsure whether in that case he would have to disclose anything. Watch this space!

Having a conviction whilst in University

thethirdman — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Eddie ... Hi ... and I hope this helps ....

I've said this before in reply to similar comments ... but ...

Shortly after the millennium, as a then 17 year old trainee nurse, before we knew her my now daughter-in-law received a jail sentence for a drugs offence.
She was dropped off the nursing course, told she could never be a nurse and was devastated. (Many of us probably know that feeling!)

However, she did manage to secure office work and decided to see if she could become a social worker.

She applied to and was accepted to do a Social Worker degree at a well known 'red brick' uni.

She had to decalre her conviction, as the course included placements in SW environments and needed enhanced CRB check.

Her uni were marvellous with her and she had no problems getting placements etc, she left with a 2:1 hons.

On leaving uni she was immediately offered SW job with a large/major city authority - spoecializing in child protection.

She is now nearing the end of a SW Masters, that her employers have paid for, and last year was appointed to a Senior Social Worker in child protection with the same authority.

Of course, all universities will be different - but if doing a social work degree isn' t a problem then you have to wonder if other subjects would be either?

Good luck to your son ... and best wishes to all.

Having a conviction whilst in University

Christopher Stacey — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

thethirdman - thanks for posting this, this is a great practical example that I hope will help both EDDIE and others!

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Having a conviction whilst in University

Christopher Stacey — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Jono - It's probably quite strong to say 'your're breaking the law', but I have no doubt that it could be possibly seen in that way. I've seen stranger things. The more likely scenario is, especially where there is an ongoing duty to inform (i.e. it's clear that you should have notified of changes), that they'd have an issue continuing with the course.

Eddie - as always, it's difficult to tell somebody exactly what to do. it seems your son isn't wanting to disclose, and you can't blame him; it's natural.

If I were you, I'd put in an anonymous call to the main University switchboard and see where you get put from there.

Many Universities are very positive towards people with convictions, but many individuals would probably wonder why bother taking the risk if they haven't found out yet. I have sympathy for this view.

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Having a conviction whilst in University

jono-gt6 — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Christopher Stacey said...
Eddie,

For example, if I got a job and was asked about convictions, but didn't have any at that time, but then got a conviction a year later, I would be expected to inform them.

I didn't realize this. This is exactly the situation i'm in. My probation officer and my PPU officer seem perfectly ok with it. But theoretically am i breaking the law? (I wont be saying anything btw, i'm just curious).

Jono

Having a conviction whilst in University

Christopher Stacey — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Eddie,

IanC is spot on here.

Just to add, the "if you're not asked, you don't have to disclose" may not apply in his case, as that is based on what you're asked at the beginning, so it depends on what he was asked when he first applied. For example, if I got a job and was asked about convictions, but didn't have any at that time, but then got a conviction a year later, I would be expected to inform them. Normally, going through UCAS you get asked about unspent convictions, and there is an expectation that changes would be informed to the University. It also depends on the course you take, as some will require disclosure of spent convictions (if the course involves placements in positions which are exempt from the ROA).

In my case, I was convicted while I was at University, and I notified them. They obviously looked into it, but they were fine about it. Our experience here at Unlock is that, generally, University's are pretty good, and it only tends to be where there is a genuine issue/risk that things can perhaps get difficult.

Have you thought about contacting the University anonymously to ask what their process is? I can understand why he may want to stay in Uni, but I wouldn't want things to come crashing down in the future.

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Having a conviction whilst in University

EDDIE — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

At the end of his first year in university he was arrested along with another student for assault. I won't go into what happened only that I would say is that the incident was started by the other party who came off worse. The incident happened in the week university had finished. It ended up in court at the start of September and my son attended Crown Court in February and pleaded guilty to affray. At the end of March he was sentenced to 16 weeks imprisonment suspended for 12 months and 100 hours Community Service.
Whilst the court case was going on my son did not tell anyone, his friends knew but he did not tell the university. However his friend who was also charged did inform them, unsure whether it was his tutor o someone else in the university. I think he was quite stressed and whilst the case was ongoing failed to deal with his studies and failed his exams. He reset them last year.
During the court process my son applied for a year out in industry, just prior to him being sentenced he was given a place in an engineering company. I should have mentioned that his degree is engineering. After he was sentenced he spoke to his probation officer and asked about disclosing the matter, he was worried that it might jeopardise his post. The probation officer advised him that if they did n't ask, was it asked on his application form and it was n't then he didn't have to disclose, so he didn't.
We did discuss though with my son about informing the university but he was not willing to do this. we didn't push the matter as we had other family problems going on at the time.
The placement has now come to an end and from what I can gather he did very well. However he now has to go back to University and I am not sure whether we should disclose to the university about the conviction.
Obviously we are very worried that the University will be unhappy and will not allow him to continue his course, it's nearly 18 months since the sentence, will they take a dim view of the fact that we are only telling them now? I think my son wants to keep the matter to himself.
I have spoken to a family member who suggested speaking to someone in the university however when I went on the website. I
Could not seem to find the relevant department that would help. As you mention it might be wise to disclose it now? Your thoughts would be welcome

Having a conviction whilst in University

Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:56:54 GMT

Hi Ediie,

I spent years at Uni in the 90’s and had no problem. I think nowadays it depends on what the offence is, whether he has restrictions and what the course is; mine was non sexual but violent. My offences were known to the Uni. A bit more detail would help?

With all due respect
Regards

Marmite

Having a conviction whilst in University

EDDIE — Mon, 13 May 2013 13:33:23 GMT

I should imagine that there are a number of people who like my son who whilst attending university have received a conviction. When this happened we were unsure what to do, in that should we tell the university. My son has decided that he would not disclose it, it's nearly 18 months since they court case. I have gone on to the university's website however there is no mention of how they would deal with these circumstances. Having read many posts on the site it would appear that if they don't ask then don't say anything. That was the advice he received from his probation officer when he was applying for his year out in university. He is planning to stay in university until his conviction becomes spent. I am just wondering if anyone has faced this problem and how they dealt with it.