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Question about going on holiday with a common assault conviction


Question about going on holiday with a common assault conviction

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Supreme Being
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dave_uk said...
Hi, i didn't realise there had been more replies on this topic since i last look, i didn't get any emails saying so..

I am planning a trip finally to Rome, Italy, i am assuming that will not be an issue being in the EU? this is my first time abroad so i think thats just made going feel more worse as im not sure if anything will happen.

as i mentioned above i was arrested on section 39 common assault, i only have a few months left until it will be classed as spent, although the trip to Italy will be before that.

I also have a question about the post above by Q3 which showed what crimes America look at as involving and not involving moral turpitude, well i'm a little unsure by looking at the post if section 39 common assault would or wouldn't be included?

Of cause i would argue that there wasn't any intent to do serious harm (which truthfully there wasn't) but does section 39 mean you did or didn't when looking at moral turpitude?

would it be looked at as an issue or would they assume my arrest isn't serious if i ever wanted to go to America?
moral turpitude  https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86942.pdf in which it states

 


Crimes committed against the person, family relationship, or sexual morality which do not involve moral turpitude include:


(1) Assault (simple) (i.e., any assault, which does not require an evil intent or depraved motive, although it may involve the use of a weapon, which is neither dangerous nor deadly);


RG
RG
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Dave_UK,

No worries! As I said spent or unspent has no relevance in USA or abroad. In Europe say France once spent you have a clean slate as per their rules. ROA is specific to UK. The legislation has its own rules within UK, for instance for scotland. Do not fret about the aberration and proceed normally.
cheers
RG

PS: To give you some indication, I was apprehensive like you. My US papers sailed through. Note ROA changes have still not come into effect and from the outset my Immigration solicitors advised me not to give any monkeys to these donkeys and their rules.
RG
RG
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Dave_UK,

It is sad. Sec 39 is the lowest of the lot in the convictions for assault. Its a summary offence and you need not mention it. Its far less serious than ABH and GBH and Battery as such wasnt a crime until it got merged with Assault ,giving the jobs worth more work by having to keep more records and an opportunity to throw the book at more people.

Now in reality a battery happens everywhere (not just a chicken coop). If you raise your voice when your kid has not done his homework, the social services could intrepret it as a threat or putting fear of violence in the child. If you answer back aloud to to your spouse sec 39 could be invoked. The list is endless in this socialist kingdom.

And the sentences vary according to the whims of the magistrates (if he had a good night with his lover, you might get off lightly). They throw fines, suspended sentences, community orders, conditional discharges anything they fancy without uniformity.

The ROA 1974 under which you intrepret it as spent is only applicable to UK where they will keep your DNA for their grandchildren and will keep popping questions till you die. Other countries are not bothered so long as you have not committed any serious criminal acts that warrant them being notified like say treason, espionage, serious pervert stuff etc

So my friend we are in the same boat. I have lost months of sleep thinking about this crap in the same lines as you. But I researched and researched and finally have found equilibrium. This is not a crime of moral turpitude. As such you need not allow anyone or anything to bully you into thinking that you are a criminal. Creating class distinctions and thriving upon it is a British passtime from time immemorial. Apologies for the long banter. Go as far as the wind takes you without having to worry about sec 39.
cheers
RG

PS: I presume they threw a fine at you or a community sentence for your trouble.

Post Edited (RG) : 03/06/2013 07:11:20 (GMT+1)


RG
RG
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Dave,

No they cant change that. Enjoy your travel.
cheers
RG
caterpillar
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I doubt anyone has the expertise within this forum to add clarity to this point.

Furthermore, the ESTA form does not ask for details of "ANY" arrest or conviction as you are stating.

What the ESTA actually asks is the following:

Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or have been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or have been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?

1). Have you been arrested for a crime and/or convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude?
2). Have you been arrested and/or convicted of a crime relating to controlled substances?
3). Have you been arrested and/or convicted of two or more offences which resulted in more than 5 years confinement (imprisonment) when added together?

4). Have you ever been a controlled substance trafficker? (Ignore this question unless you hold convictions thereof!)
5). Are you looking to entire the USA for criminal purposes? (Obviously not!)

Break down the question properly and the only grey area is "moral turpitude". For definitive advise, I suggest you contact a lawyer experienced with immigration. Or perhaps vigerously research the point on the internet. I would seriously doubt a common assault (lowest form / no mens rea / no weapon) would constitute "moral turpitude".

Remember that only a Sec. 18 under UK law allows the formation of necessary intent (mens rea). What is potentially dubious would be a Sec. 20 conviction whereby the CPS has accepted a plea and could possibly be triable as a Sec. 18.

I assume that the embassy in London and the ACPO certificate only states the offense/conviction and disposal of conviction, and the particulars of your conviction are for you to disclose under interview.

I also think you are getting mixed up between the consular / embassy site for London whereby it does state "any arrest". Can you answer the questions above with confidence? If so, there is no reason for you to consider visiting the embassy since you are answering within their guidelines.

FWIW, I have attended the US Embassy in 2008 and obtained a 10 year Visa, as I held a caution for possession of a controlled substance. The process is daunting but fairly straightforward.
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A point to consolidate on my previous post...


Section 18 ... Mens rea - "specific" intent

All assaults are of "basic" intent
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Just my 2 'cents'. Any Assault under UK Law upto and including a Section 20 would not be considered a crime of moral turpitude under US Law since the following applies:

Assault (simple) (any assault, which does not require an evil intent or depraved motive, although it may involve the use of a weapon, which is neither dangerous nor deadly)
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As mentioned elsewhere, there is no way of their immigration checking you out unless...

1). There is an international arrest warrant issued against you.
2). An individual subject access request is made.

Obviousy take your case on it's merits, have you got one offense against you?

If the OP is unsure still and only going on holiday, just wing it. Spoke to plenty of people inside who are habitual criminals and travel to USA a lot.

The guidelines are terrible.
Anonymous
Anonymous



Or, you are picked out by immigration for some un-known reason. We all know that a subject access request can be made in minutes, and this can be done from anywhere in the world.

I am sure that some type of cross referencing is made via the ESTA process anyway, because if there was an arrest warrant out on you wouldn't get cleared to enter.


There are no mistakes in life, only lessons.


Anonymous
Anonymous



caterpillar said...
Just my 2 'cents'. Any Assault under UK Law upto and including a Section 20 would not be considered a crime of moral turpitude under US Law since the following applies:

Assault (simple) (any assault, which does not require an evil intent or depraved motive, although it may involve the use of a weapon, which is neither dangerous nor deadly)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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There are no mistakes in life, only lessons.

Post Edited (Spiritus) : 27/06/2013 18:24:45 (GMT+1)


GO


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