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dedalus
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 63,
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+xI think how it will work is undetermined and a real mess. From the ETAIS site:
If the imprisonment is considered ‘spent’ then the traveller does not even need to declare the conviction, and it cannot be used against them even if immigration officials are aware of the offense.
Going to Europe with a Criminal Record: Requirements & ETIAS (etiasvisa.com)
This is probably something that Unlock could maybe find out what the rules will be and add an advice page to the site. Exactly the point, the whole process looks like a complete f... up, sorry for my language but it is the only way to describe it. I predict that when it starts they will be issuing refusals for all sorts of reasons with a scattergun approach only to realize that the number of people unable to travel to the EU from the UK with minor criminal or indeed old spent convictions will impact the numbers travelling a fair bit; then after a year they will address the issues, very slowly, to a point where refusals are issued on reasonable grounds. I have decided not to travel in 2023 until we get feeback of how the process is working. It only takes one refusal and then chances one will be effectively banned from travelling to a specific country. Don't expect the EU to revise previous refusals once these are issued.....
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marcovanba
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Group: Forum Members
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I have a spent conviction for fraud (suspended sentence 2 years), but but apart from a trip to Paris in the next few weeks, I will probably hold off on booking else to the EU for a while
It will probably be a mess like everything else Brexit related
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forever changes
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 561,
Visits: 101
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+xI think how it will work is undetermined and a real mess. From the ETAIS site:
[quote]If the imprisonment is considered ‘spent’ then the traveller does not even need to declare the conviction, and it cannot be used against them even if immigration officials are aware of the offense. Going to Europe with a Criminal Record: Requirements & ETIAS (etiasvisa.com)This is probably something that Unlock could maybe find out what the rules will be and add an advice page to the site Unlock have produced advice but it's already out of date as it's got the 10 year time period not 15 year https://unlock.org.uk/travel-to-the-eu-post-brexit/
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punter99
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 722,
Visits: 5.3K
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+x+x+x+xI went to book a holiday for 2023 today and travel agent (fortunately it seems) mentioned if I knew about ETIAS - which i didn't - but once he explained the gist of it it set alarm bells ringing as I was on the SOR for 10 yrs and a frequent traveller abroad which caused me a lot of stress.and I felt so liberated once I could stop registering travel plans at Police stations and could go through borders without interrogations. Now depressingly i've ended up back at Unlock Forum after several years of freedom of movement trying to find out exactly what the ETIAS rules will be - but can't find a definitive answer. The travel agent today mentioned 10 yrs period general declaration and 15 for terrorism offences but going through this thread it looks like it's actually 15 and 25 respectively?. Once my time on the SOR finished I got rid of all documentation to do with my case so don't know exactly when my conviction was but I think sometime in 2009 which would catch me if the basic time period is 15 yrs. I also got a motoring conviction a few years back when instead of accepting a fixed penalty notice I disputed the case and lost and ignorant that this gave me a criminal conviction, I'm not sure what effect that will have on ETIAS. Also what about if you have to transit in an EU country, do you need ETIAS for that? So I'm going to maximise my travel this year now but annoyed and frustrated the details of what actually will be the rules and when application can be made don't seem available anywhere unless someone can provide a link I think we will just have to wait and see what happens next year when people start applying. The guidance is not clear. IMHO a lot of it will be dealt with manually by each EU country and that is th worrying aspect. My hope was that upon declaring a conviction the application process would scan through the relevant databases and if these were clear then the etias would be approved however upon reading the guidance I think that even if the checks are clear, the application will still go through a manual process with the etias department in the relevant country. So basically even if they cannot check the pnc, upon declaring a conviction, the application will land on someone's desk for manual processing. Because of the huge volume of applications that ETIAS will be processing, I doubt that every one will be dealt with manually. The ones that will be, are the ones where it returns a hit on one of the databases and the ones where somebody declares a conviction. the key point is if someone declares a conviction is this passed on to the local etias team anyway or just if there is a hit on the databases? what i am trying to say is one may be ok with the databases but not ok with a bureocrat looking at a declared conviction so you pass the autmoatic tests but fail on the human test which whatever the guidelines will be will be subjective to an extent... Article 26 4. Where automated processing under Article 20(3) has reported that the applicant replied affirmatively to one of the questions referred to in Article 17(4), (the ones about convictions) the ETIAS National Unit of the Member State responsible shall assess the security or illegal immigration risk and decide whether to issue or refuse a travel authorisation. So answering 'yes' to the question about convictions, does trigger a manual intervention.
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punter99
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 722,
Visits: 5.3K
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+x+x+x+xI went to book a holiday for 2023 today and travel agent (fortunately it seems) mentioned if I knew about ETIAS - which i didn't - but once he explained the gist of it it set alarm bells ringing as I was on the SOR for 10 yrs and a frequent traveller abroad which caused me a lot of stress.and I felt so liberated once I could stop registering travel plans at Police stations and could go through borders without interrogations. Now depressingly i've ended up back at Unlock Forum after several years of freedom of movement trying to find out exactly what the ETIAS rules will be - but can't find a definitive answer. The travel agent today mentioned 10 yrs period general declaration and 15 for terrorism offences but going through this thread it looks like it's actually 15 and 25 respectively?. Once my time on the SOR finished I got rid of all documentation to do with my case so don't know exactly when my conviction was but I think sometime in 2009 which would catch me if the basic time period is 15 yrs. I also got a motoring conviction a few years back when instead of accepting a fixed penalty notice I disputed the case and lost and ignorant that this gave me a criminal conviction, I'm not sure what effect that will have on ETIAS. Also what about if you have to transit in an EU country, do you need ETIAS for that? So I'm going to maximise my travel this year now but annoyed and frustrated the details of what actually will be the rules and when application can be made don't seem available anywhere unless someone can provide a link I think we will just have to wait and see what happens next year when people start applying. The guidance is not clear. IMHO a lot of it will be dealt with manually by each EU country and that is th worrying aspect. My hope was that upon declaring a conviction the application process would scan through the relevant databases and if these were clear then the etias would be approved however upon reading the guidance I think that even if the checks are clear, the application will still go through a manual process with the etias department in the relevant country. So basically even if they cannot check the pnc, upon declaring a conviction, the application will land on someone's desk for manual processing. Because of the huge volume of applications that ETIAS will be processing, I doubt that every one will be dealt with manually. The ones that will be, are the ones where it returns a hit on one of the databases and the ones where somebody declares a conviction. Bear in mind that one of the databases might well have any previous travel records for the Schengen Zone. So, if you had travelled previously while on the SOR, that might generate a hit. If you didn't travel to the EU while you were on the SOR, you should be fine. The only databases that might hold info on previous travel to the EU are the EES (Entry Exit System) which is a brand new database, not currently in operation, and SIS, which contains details of SIS alerts, but not details of past travel.
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punter99
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 722,
Visits: 5.3K
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+x+xI think how it will work is undetermined and a real mess. From the ETAIS site:
If the imprisonment is considered ‘spent’ then the traveller does not even need to declare the conviction, and it cannot be used against them even if immigration officials are aware of the offense.
Going to Europe with a Criminal Record: Requirements & ETIAS (etiasvisa.com)
This is probably something that Unlock could maybe find out what the rules will be and add an advice page to the site. Exactly the point, the whole process looks like a complete f... up, sorry for my language but it is the only way to describe it. I predict that when it starts they will be issuing refusals for all sorts of reasons with a scattergun approach only to realize that the number of people unable to travel to the EU from the UK with minor criminal or indeed old spent convictions will impact the numbers travelling a fair bit; then after a year they will address the issues, very slowly, to a point where refusals are issued on reasonable grounds. I have decided not to travel in 2023 until we get feeback of how the process is working. It only takes one refusal and then chances one will be effectively banned from travelling to a specific country. Don't expect the EU to revise previous refusals once these are issued..... One of the issues, is that each EU country has different rules on how to treat convictions. Because the decision on how to treat convictions is devolved to the individual ETIAS team in each member state, there will be differences, depending which country you are going to and that will lead to inconsistency, certainly in the short term.
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Was
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 282,
Visits: 3.6K
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+xOne of the issues, is that each EU country has different rules on how to treat convictions. Because the decision on how to treat convictions is devolved to the individual ETIAS team in each member state, there will be differences, depending which country you are going to and that will lead to inconsistency, certainly in the short term. I suspect that the practicalities of this is that the ETIAS rules will make it an overriding compulsion to declare all convictions, spent or not. I also have a feeling that the underlying database will have no idea of actual UK criminal records so it will be a lottery at the border and down to whether the applicant chickens out in their declaration. However, I rather know up front whether I can travel rather than face the risk of being turned away.
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.1K,
Visits: 7K
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+xI think how it will work is undetermined and a real mess. From the ETAIS site:
If the imprisonment is considered ‘spent’ then the traveller does not even need to declare the conviction, and it cannot be used against them even if immigration officials are aware of the offense.
Going to Europe with a Criminal Record: Requirements & ETIAS (etiasvisa.com)
This is probably something that Unlock could maybe find out what the rules will be and add an advice page to the site. I followed that link, and the information is unofficial and also out of date. By nine years. The ROA was updated in 2013, so that convictions with a sentence of up to four years can become spent in England & Wales, but not according to them. So, if they can't get that right, is any of the other information correct? Maybe ETIAS has been delayed again, but the UK media are basing all their apocalyptic warnings on it starting on 1st January 2023. The most recent plan was for it to be available voluntarily from July 2022 and mandatory from January 2023, but it wouldn't be the first time the schedule has slipped. I would prefer to rely on the EU's official site for information. I have just emailed Debbie at Unlock to suggest updating the information.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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Was
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 282,
Visits: 3.6K
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+xI have just emailed Debbie at Unlock to suggest updating the information. Double thumbs up. I have (like probably many others) tried to navigate the conflicting "advice". I do not have a Scooby-doo, what is true. There is the potential for it to be "gallic shrug" or a US style absolute block on traveling abroad with a criminal conviction. It's impossible to tell.
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dedalus
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 63,
Visits: 1.4K
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+x+x+x+x+xI went to book a holiday for 2023 today and travel agent (fortunately it seems) mentioned if I knew about ETIAS - which i didn't - but once he explained the gist of it it set alarm bells ringing as I was on the SOR for 10 yrs and a frequent traveller abroad which caused me a lot of stress.and I felt so liberated once I could stop registering travel plans at Police stations and could go through borders without interrogations. Now depressingly i've ended up back at Unlock Forum after several years of freedom of movement trying to find out exactly what the ETIAS rules will be - but can't find a definitive answer. The travel agent today mentioned 10 yrs period general declaration and 15 for terrorism offences but going through this thread it looks like it's actually 15 and 25 respectively?. Once my time on the SOR finished I got rid of all documentation to do with my case so don't know exactly when my conviction was but I think sometime in 2009 which would catch me if the basic time period is 15 yrs. I also got a motoring conviction a few years back when instead of accepting a fixed penalty notice I disputed the case and lost and ignorant that this gave me a criminal conviction, I'm not sure what effect that will have on ETIAS. Also what about if you have to transit in an EU country, do you need ETIAS for that? So I'm going to maximise my travel this year now but annoyed and frustrated the details of what actually will be the rules and when application can be made don't seem available anywhere unless someone can provide a link I think we will just have to wait and see what happens next year when people start applying. The guidance is not clear. IMHO a lot of it will be dealt with manually by each EU country and that is th worrying aspect. My hope was that upon declaring a conviction the application process would scan through the relevant databases and if these were clear then the etias would be approved however upon reading the guidance I think that even if the checks are clear, the application will still go through a manual process with the etias department in the relevant country. So basically even if they cannot check the pnc, upon declaring a conviction, the application will land on someone's desk for manual processing. Because of the huge volume of applications that ETIAS will be processing, I doubt that every one will be dealt with manually. The ones that will be, are the ones where it returns a hit on one of the databases and the ones where somebody declares a conviction. the key point is if someone declares a conviction is this passed on to the local etias team anyway or just if there is a hit on the databases? what i am trying to say is one may be ok with the databases but not ok with a bureocrat looking at a declared conviction so you pass the autmoatic tests but fail on the human test which whatever the guidelines will be will be subjective to an extent... Article 26 4. Where automated processing under Article 20(3) has reported that the applicant replied affirmatively to one of the questions referred to in Article 17(4), (the ones about convictions) the ETIAS National Unit of the Member State responsible shall assess the security or illegal immigration risk and decide whether to issue or refuse a travel authorisation. So answering 'yes' to the question about convictions, does trigger a manual intervention. there we go then, a load of refusals for petty convictions or more serious convictions that are spent years ago. Your average EU policeman will play it safe and refuse access. In a lot of EU countries the personnel looking at these will be low rank police officers who may not even speak english and I would guess that the input to their file will be an automated translated version of whetever the entry in the application form is. i.e. for example for fraud are they likely to ask to what extent the fraud is? robbing old age pensioners or using an expired blue badge. They will simply put all types of fraud crimes in one basket. I would guess the same for other crimes. EU systems are just not that sophisticated.
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