|
Was
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 282,
Visits: 3.6K
|
+xYour average EU policeman will play it safe and refuse access. Whilst I understand your "jobsworth" stance, the chances that your average EU border plod will have any access to actual criminal records is minimal. It comes down to those of us who are likely to be open and honest will get screwed over, whilst others prepared to play laissez faire with the requirements will breeze though. Now, if I KNEW what the rules were going to be I'd be okay with it or way or another. It's the fact that the "official" advice is cobblers that's the problem,
|
|
|
|
|
dedalus
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 63,
Visits: 1.4K
|
+x+xYour average EU policeman will play it safe and refuse access. Whilst I understand your "jobsworth" stance, the chances that your average EU border plod will have any access to actual criminal records is minimal. It comes down to those of us who are likely to be open and honest will get screwed over, whilst others prepared to play laissez faire with the requirements will breeze though. Now, if I KNEW what the rules were going to be I'd be okay with it or way or another. It's the fact that the "official" advice is cobblers that's the problem, I suspect they will have to change the rules to something similar to aussie rules I. E. How much time has one served in jail Each EU country has their own legal system and a generic question on a criminal conviction will not fit all systems Something like the fraud act for example does not even exist in a certain EU country I know.
|
|
|
|
|
AB2014
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 7K
|
+x+x+x+x+x+xI went to book a holiday for 2023 today and travel agent (fortunately it seems) mentioned if I knew about ETIAS - which i didn't - but once he explained the gist of it it set alarm bells ringing as I was on the SOR for 10 yrs and a frequent traveller abroad which caused me a lot of stress.and I felt so liberated once I could stop registering travel plans at Police stations and could go through borders without interrogations. Now depressingly i've ended up back at Unlock Forum after several years of freedom of movement trying to find out exactly what the ETIAS rules will be - but can't find a definitive answer. The travel agent today mentioned 10 yrs period general declaration and 15 for terrorism offences but going through this thread it looks like it's actually 15 and 25 respectively?. Once my time on the SOR finished I got rid of all documentation to do with my case so don't know exactly when my conviction was but I think sometime in 2009 which would catch me if the basic time period is 15 yrs. I also got a motoring conviction a few years back when instead of accepting a fixed penalty notice I disputed the case and lost and ignorant that this gave me a criminal conviction, I'm not sure what effect that will have on ETIAS. Also what about if you have to transit in an EU country, do you need ETIAS for that? So I'm going to maximise my travel this year now but annoyed and frustrated the details of what actually will be the rules and when application can be made don't seem available anywhere unless someone can provide a link I think we will just have to wait and see what happens next year when people start applying. The guidance is not clear. IMHO a lot of it will be dealt with manually by each EU country and that is th worrying aspect. My hope was that upon declaring a conviction the application process would scan through the relevant databases and if these were clear then the etias would be approved however upon reading the guidance I think that even if the checks are clear, the application will still go through a manual process with the etias department in the relevant country. So basically even if they cannot check the pnc, upon declaring a conviction, the application will land on someone's desk for manual processing. Because of the huge volume of applications that ETIAS will be processing, I doubt that every one will be dealt with manually. The ones that will be, are the ones where it returns a hit on one of the databases and the ones where somebody declares a conviction. the key point is if someone declares a conviction is this passed on to the local etias team anyway or just if there is a hit on the databases? what i am trying to say is one may be ok with the databases but not ok with a bureocrat looking at a declared conviction so you pass the autmoatic tests but fail on the human test which whatever the guidelines will be will be subjective to an extent... Article 26 4. Where automated processing under Article 20(3) has reported that the applicant replied affirmatively to one of the questions referred to in Article 17(4), (the ones about convictions) the ETIAS National Unit of the Member State responsible shall assess the security or illegal immigration risk and decide whether to issue or refuse a travel authorisation. So answering 'yes' to the question about convictions, does trigger a manual intervention. there we go then, a load of refusals for petty convictions or more serious convictions that are spent years ago. Your average EU policeman will play it safe and refuse access. In a lot of EU countries the personnel looking at these will be low rank police officers who may not even speak english and I would guess that the input to their file will be an automated translated version of whetever the entry in the application form is. i.e. for example for fraud are they likely to ask to what extent the fraud is? robbing old age pensioners or using an expired blue badge. They will simply put all types of fraud crimes in one basket. I would guess the same for other crimes. EU systems are just not that sophisticated. You seem to be making some assumptions here. Will it be low-level police officers, or will it be civil servants? Visas and travel authorisations are normally processed by embassies, high commissions, consulates, or centrally by a civil service agency like Borders & Visas, or whatever they're called this year. You assume again that the whole system will rely on automated translation, but why? Maybe the ETIAS application form will offer you the chance to submit additional information, rather than just asking for the offence category. If the decision is to refuse ETIAS, that still means you can apply for a Schengen visa, which will definitely be processed by civil servants and you will be asked for more information. Don't forget that the EU is a massive bureaucracy, so this will all be run by bureaucrats, and although the computer system might not be that sophisticated (but don't pre-judge it on the standards of the UK government), the bureaucrats will want to apply the rules correctly or face the mountain of paperwork that would result from a complaint.
=========================================================================================================
If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
|
|
|
|
|
dedalus
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 63,
Visits: 1.4K
|
+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI went to book a holiday for 2023 today and travel agent (fortunately it seems) mentioned if I knew about ETIAS - which i didn't - but once he explained the gist of it it set alarm bells ringing as I was on the SOR for 10 yrs and a frequent traveller abroad which caused me a lot of stress.and I felt so liberated once I could stop registering travel plans at Police stations and could go through borders without interrogations. Now depressingly i've ended up back at Unlock Forum after several years of freedom of movement trying to find out exactly what the ETIAS rules will be - but can't find a definitive answer. The travel agent today mentioned 10 yrs period general declaration and 15 for terrorism offences but going through this thread it looks like it's actually 15 and 25 respectively?. Once my time on the SOR finished I got rid of all documentation to do with my case so don't know exactly when my conviction was but I think sometime in 2009 which would catch me if the basic time period is 15 yrs. I also got a motoring conviction a few years back when instead of accepting a fixed penalty notice I disputed the case and lost and ignorant that this gave me a criminal conviction, I'm not sure what effect that will have on ETIAS. Also what about if you have to transit in an EU country, do you need ETIAS for that? So I'm going to maximise my travel this year now but annoyed and frustrated the details of what actually will be the rules and when application can be made don't seem available anywhere unless someone can provide a link I think we will just have to wait and see what happens next year when people start applying. The guidance is not clear. IMHO a lot of it will be dealt with manually by each EU country and that is th worrying aspect. My hope was that upon declaring a conviction the application process would scan through the relevant databases and if these were clear then the etias would be approved however upon reading the guidance I think that even if the checks are clear, the application will still go through a manual process with the etias department in the relevant country. So basically even if they cannot check the pnc, upon declaring a conviction, the application will land on someone's desk for manual processing. Because of the huge volume of applications that ETIAS will be processing, I doubt that every one will be dealt with manually. The ones that will be, are the ones where it returns a hit on one of the databases and the ones where somebody declares a conviction. the key point is if someone declares a conviction is this passed on to the local etias team anyway or just if there is a hit on the databases? what i am trying to say is one may be ok with the databases but not ok with a bureocrat looking at a declared conviction so you pass the autmoatic tests but fail on the human test which whatever the guidelines will be will be subjective to an extent... Article 26 4. Where automated processing under Article 20(3) has reported that the applicant replied affirmatively to one of the questions referred to in Article 17(4), (the ones about convictions) the ETIAS National Unit of the Member State responsible shall assess the security or illegal immigration risk and decide whether to issue or refuse a travel authorisation. So answering 'yes' to the question about convictions, does trigger a manual intervention. there we go then, a load of refusals for petty convictions or more serious convictions that are spent years ago. Your average EU policeman will play it safe and refuse access. In a lot of EU countries the personnel looking at these will be low rank police officers who may not even speak english and I would guess that the input to their file will be an automated translated version of whetever the entry in the application form is. i.e. for example for fraud are they likely to ask to what extent the fraud is? robbing old age pensioners or using an expired blue badge. They will simply put all types of fraud crimes in one basket. I would guess the same for other crimes. EU systems are just not that sophisticated. You seem to be making some assumptions here. Will it be low-level police officers, or will it be civil servants? Visas and travel authorisations are normally processed by embassies, high commissions, consulates, or centrally by a civil service agency like Borders & Visas, or whatever they're called this year. You assume again that the whole system will rely on automated translation, but why? Maybe the ETIAS application form will offer you the chance to submit additional information, rather than just asking for the offence category. If the decision is to refuse ETIAS, that still means you can apply for a Schengen visa, which will definitely be processed by civil servants and you will be asked for more information. Don't forget that the EU is a massive bureaucracy, so this will all be run by bureaucrats, and although the computer system might not be that sophisticated (but don't pre-judge it on the standards of the UK government), the bureaucrats will want to apply the rules correctly or face the mountain of paperwork that would result from a complaint. I'm italian by origin and i know how things work there. police will be going through this stuff. for example they issue passports in italy, not civilian staff. for example when issuing travel documents for italian citizens abroad, the local embassy and or consulate have to get in touch with the police in italy before issuing a new document.
|
|
|
|
|
punter99
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 719,
Visits: 5.3K
|
The ETIAS central unit is going to be run by Frontex, which is the European Border and Coast Guard. So they are the EU's equivalent of civil servants, like the UK's Border Force, and not police.
|
|
|
|
|
AB2014
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 7K
|
+xThe ETIAS central unit is going to be run by Frontex, which is the European Border and Coast Guard. So they are the EU's equivalent of civil servants, like the UK's Border Force, and not police. Also, if you want a Schengen visa, you can apply to a different country. Different sites say different countries are the easiest to get a Schengen visa, but only based on the lowest refusal rate, with no mention of the actual number of applications. Mind you, if someone is Italian by descent, then if they can prove that, they can claim an Italian passport. No more Schengen visa worries.... Meanwhile, if you are a UK citizen as well, a conviction received in the UK would not be communicated to any other country.
=========================================================================================================
If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
|
|
|
|
|
dedalus
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 63,
Visits: 1.4K
|
+x+xThe ETIAS central unit is going to be run by Frontex, which is the European Border and Coast Guard. So they are the EU's equivalent of civil servants, like the UK's Border Force, and not police. Also, if you want a Schengen visa, you can apply to a different country. Different sites say different countries are the easiest to get a Schengen visa, but only based on the lowest refusal rate, with no mention of the actual number of applications. Mind you, if someone is Italian by descent, then if they can prove that, they can claim an Italian passport. No more Schengen visa worries.... Meanwhile, if you are a UK citizen as well, a conviction received in the UK would not be communicated to any other country. seems a completely useless process then, one can obtain access to the whole of europe based on another country's view of a conviction? At a guess which country is likely to be more lenient on a small fraud charge? Holland? Germany? I read lithuania has the lowest number of refusals.
|
|
|
|
|
AB2014
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 7K
|
+x+x+xThe ETIAS central unit is going to be run by Frontex, which is the European Border and Coast Guard. So they are the EU's equivalent of civil servants, like the UK's Border Force, and not police. Also, if you want a Schengen visa, you can apply to a different country. Different sites say different countries are the easiest to get a Schengen visa, but only based on the lowest refusal rate, with no mention of the actual number of applications. Mind you, if someone is Italian by descent, then if they can prove that, they can claim an Italian passport. No more Schengen visa worries.... Meanwhile, if you are a UK citizen as well, a conviction received in the UK would not be communicated to any other country. seems a completely useless process then, one can obtain access to the whole of europe based on another country's view of a conviction? At a guess which country is likely to be more lenient on a small fraud charge? Holland? Germany? I read lithuania has the lowest number of refusals. I'm sure the process came about through the European Commission trying to herd 27 cats. They agreed on a common system but didn't agree to the EU making their decisions for them.... There's no way of knowing how individual offences are seen by each country, and the lowest number of refusals might be due to the lowest number of applications. I'd be tempted to look at the countries with the most applications and compare their refusal numbers for a better statistical sample.
=========================================================================================================
If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
|
|
|
|
|
ImJack
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 5,
Visits: 23
|
+xI have a spent conviction for fraud (suspended sentence 2 years), but but apart from a trip to Paris in the next few weeks, I will probably hold off on booking else to the EU for a while It will probably be a mess like everything else Brexit related Hi Did you get to Paris? I've been offered a trip on Eurostar to Amsterdam but unsure if they will let me travel (just an unspent record) Thanks Jack
|
|
|
|
|
Was
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 282,
Visits: 3.6K
|
+xHi Did you get to Paris? I've been offered a trip on Eurostar to Amsterdam but unsure if they will let me travel (just an unspent record) Thanks Jack My understanding is that the new rules come in next year. If the trip is soon, you shouldn't have a problem.
|
|
|
|