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state of our current prison system!


state of our current prison system!

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CC
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AB2014 - 8 Mar 18 10:15 AM
CC - 6 Mar 18 10:45 PM
The Sanity Clause !
So true, I found myself in this situation. I was fortunately on a fixed sentence but even so I wanted to do a particular course but was denied despite it being on my sentence plan (and despite me transferring there specifically for that course).
 I had to use a solicitor to get the prison to put me on the course I had transferred there to do. He was successful . I would have been released without it otherwise. Unfortunately whilst there some box ticker (and I`m being polite here) took a dislike to me and wanted me on a different course and so began what seemed to me like  a Marx Brothers movie.
I was sent to psychology to do the course he decided I should do, psychology turned me away. A few days later the box ticker (OMU minion) sought me out and demanded to know why I wasn't doing the course. I patiently explained that Psychology didn't deem it worthwhile or necessary! Now it would be reasonable to expect at this point that said OMU minion would have accepted their (way more qualified ) judgement and the case would be closed but no, I was sent again and ordered to do the course.
This turned into a farcical routine for a while but at no point did the OMU minion ever go to Psychology himself to sort this out and I was wearing a rut in the carpet so to speak. By this time (several weeks) I was getting a bit fed up with it all, the fun aspect was wearing off. ON the final visit to psychology I asked the psychology person to please allow me to take the assessment for the course just to bring this to an end and they agreed there and then.
So I did the assessment and was sent away to await the result. A couple of days later I had a visit from the psychologist who took me for my assessment. she took me to one side and told me I had got top marks in the assessment as they expected and handed me a formal letter to keep informing me of same. They also told me that a copy would be put in my permanent file and a third copy sent to the OMU !   finally and I have to say being handed that letter made my day. I was not bothered again. That is until my parole when the OMU tried their best to sink my parole by saying I had refused to do a course I needed, Out came the letter and I got it anyway.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Sy6oiJbEk
Looking back now it was funny and a bit farcical but it would have been a lot more serious if I wasn't on a fixed sentence and parole only made a few months difference anyway but OH dear reading other comments it appears to be quite common.
 I cannot agree with Derek Arnold that prison is in anyway a good thing but I would like to wish anyone who has to go through this the very best of luck. Derek is absolutely right you have to steer your own course, be the architect of your own fate. Don`t rely on anyone in the system to do it for you but tread carefully some staff dont like you taking the initiative as in my case.


I think this shows that once you are in prison, your future is not in your hands. Whatever it is you want, you depend 100% on someone else, whether you're talking about doing courses, getting your post or going to the library. That only stops if/when you get to Cat D, but even then, when the box-tickers disagree, you're still relying on someone else, whatever you try to do. In CC's case, if he hadn't persuaded Psychology to let him do the assessment and they hadn't given him the letter, he would have been stuck. I remember being assessed for ETS many years ago, and being told by the assessor that I had done better than anyone else he had ever assessed. I still had to do the course. It later emerged that they often included people who didn't need to do the course, just to help and encourage the others who did need to do it. Why bother assessing me, then, other than as a box-ticking exercise?

I strongly feel that prison is not the best place for rehab, mainly because it is hard for it to exist in such an environment.. The main contributing factor to my offending was low self esteem, a common trait for people who commit similar offences to mine so I was told by psychology and my personal experience of prison staff( at the one I was in) was they were happy to do all they could to lower it further, sometimes in petty ways. i.e calling me to the wing office to "see how long it took me to get there" really!!! they pay them for this. There were a few good staff there but far outweighed by the others. this is one of the more milder examples in my experience. In the end a listener got a governor involved, I was moved to another wing and the staff in question were expressly prohibited from contact with me. My unpopularity with said staff was I am certain because I took the initiative throughout my sentence, as AB2014 says you are not allowed  control and in my case I insisted upon it to do what I transferred there to do by using a solicitor. To my advantage my solicitor was all too used to this system and knew exactly how to get results but seriously he shouldn't have to. I had legal aid so the MOJ was paying the obstructive staff at the prison and paying the solicitor to deal with the obstructive staff. The insanity Clause alright.
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CC - 6 Mar 18 10:45 PM
The Sanity Clause !
So true, I found myself in this situation. I was fortunately on a fixed sentence but even so I wanted to do a particular course but was denied despite it being on my sentence plan (and despite me transferring there specifically for that course).
 I had to use a solicitor to get the prison to put me on the course I had transferred there to do. He was successful . I would have been released without it otherwise. Unfortunately whilst there some box ticker (and I`m being polite here) took a dislike to me and wanted me on a different course and so began what seemed to me like  a Marx Brothers movie.
I was sent to psychology to do the course he decided I should do, psychology turned me away. A few days later the box ticker (OMU minion) sought me out and demanded to know why I wasn't doing the course. I patiently explained that Psychology didn't deem it worthwhile or necessary! Now it would be reasonable to expect at this point that said OMU minion would have accepted their (way more qualified ) judgement and the case would be closed but no, I was sent again and ordered to do the course.
This turned into a farcical routine for a while but at no point did the OMU minion ever go to Psychology himself to sort this out and I was wearing a rut in the carpet so to speak. By this time (several weeks) I was getting a bit fed up with it all, the fun aspect was wearing off. ON the final visit to psychology I asked the psychology person to please allow me to take the assessment for the course just to bring this to an end and they agreed there and then.
So I did the assessment and was sent away to await the result. A couple of days later I had a visit from the psychologist who took me for my assessment. she took me to one side and told me I had got top marks in the assessment as they expected and handed me a formal letter to keep informing me of same. They also told me that a copy would be put in my permanent file and a third copy sent to the OMU !   finally and I have to say being handed that letter made my day. I was not bothered again. That is until my parole when the OMU tried their best to sink my parole by saying I had refused to do a course I needed, Out came the letter and I got it anyway.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Sy6oiJbEk
Looking back now it was funny and a bit farcical but it would have been a lot more serious if I wasn't on a fixed sentence and parole only made a few months difference anyway but OH dear reading other comments it appears to be quite common.
 I cannot agree with Derek Arnold that prison is in anyway a good thing but I would like to wish anyone who has to go through this the very best of luck. Derek is absolutely right you have to steer your own course, be the architect of your own fate. Don`t rely on anyone in the system to do it for you but tread carefully some staff dont like you taking the initiative as in my case.


I think this shows that once you are in prison, your future is not in your hands. Whatever it is you want, you depend 100% on someone else, whether you're talking about doing courses, getting your post or going to the library. That only stops if/when you get to Cat D, but even then, when the box-tickers disagree, you're still relying on someone else, whatever you try to do. In CC's case, if he hadn't persuaded Psychology to let him do the assessment and they hadn't given him the letter, he would have been stuck. I remember being assessed for ETS many years ago, and being told by the assessor that I had done better than anyone else he had ever assessed. I still had to do the course. It later emerged that they often included people who didn't need to do the course, just to help and encourage the others who did need to do it. Why bother assessing me, then, other than as a box-ticking exercise?

=========================================================================================================

If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)

CC
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Diogenese - 6 Mar 18 9:57 PM
Prison is necessary and an inevitable part of society but the system as it stands simply does not work.

There are career criminals for whom prison is a hazard of the job. For such people, their knowledge of the system is usually quite extensive and they can play the system to gain the most leverage they can (not criticizing, just stating a fact). If we're completely honest, there are those who we are all pleased are locked away, and who should remain there. Others still have no business being in prison at all.

One of the main problems with the prison system is the wonderful Oasys system, the sentence plan and the delivery of sentence plan recommendations. Oasys may suggest that behaviour of a certain kind is indicative of a certain personality, the offender manager is able to interpret that to mean the person should attend a particular course. Whether that course is relevant is immaterial, it's simply a box-ticking exercise that has no real value and no intrinsic meaning. Now the problems begin because the course in question may not be available in a particular prison, or because of said interpretations, is so over-subscribed that the waiting list is months long. So getting onto a course that you do not need and is not immediately available, is the first barrier.

You may wait months for the course, only then to be told that you are not eligible because those delivering the courses have different criteria to those who demand you attend. These two discreet areas will not communicate to ensure that the prisoner is correctly assigned, it is for the 'offender' to try to sort out the problem, which is very difficult in an environment in which you have no standing.

Perhaps the worst scenario is when you are not actually told that you will need to attend a course in order to progress and having waited for months or even years, you expect to move on only then to be told that you need to do, for example, 'Victim Awareness'. Suddenly, your progression hopes and plans are shattered; the current course is in progress, the next two courses are fully booked or indeed that course is not available at your prison - progression ... none.

This requirement to attend a non-existent course is one of the major causes of frustration and despair, especially after someone has planned their progress in their heads, counted down the days (perhaps to move to Cat D) only to be derailed at the last minute. These men may be in prison, but they have the same aspirations and ambitions, the same concerns for their family.

When I was imprisoned in 2012, I was fortunate to be told by an older, wiser soul that I would most likely need to do the 'Victim Awareness' course, most men were. Had he not told me, I would never have known. I got signed up and the course was done. When my cat D application was being discussed, I had exactly what I have just described, happen - the OS said that I would have to do this course before I could move and she was surprised to learn that I had already completed it because my file did not contain the information. I had to show her my certificate to prove the point. 

This is one rather simplistic situation which could have had a devastating impact on me at a time I was looking forward to progressing.

The motto of the story really is that YOUR progress is in YOUR hands, you can't depend on the prison system to guide you, or to steer you in the right direction. It will leave everything to chance, and no one really cares about the impact on your mental health when things like this happen.

Good luck to everyone who is trying to progress.



Edited
6 Years Ago by CC
CC
CC
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The Sanity Clause !
So true, I found myself in this situation. I was fortunately on a fixed sentence but even so I wanted to do a particular course but was denied despite it being on my sentence plan (and despite me transferring there specifically for that course).
 I had to use a solicitor to get the prison to put me on the course I had transferred there to do. He was successful . I would have been released without it otherwise. Unfortunately whilst there some box ticker (and I`m being polite here) took a dislike to me and wanted me on a different course and so began what seemed to me like  a Marx Brothers movie.
I was sent to psychology to do the course he decided I should do, psychology turned me away. A few days later the box ticker (OMU minion) sought me out and demanded to know why I wasn't doing the course. I patiently explained that Psychology didn't deem it worthwhile or necessary! Now it would be reasonable to expect at this point that said OMU minion would have accepted their (way more qualified ) judgement and the case would be closed but no, I was sent again and ordered to do the course.
This turned into a farcical routine for a while but at no point did the OMU minion ever go to Psychology himself to sort this out and I was wearing a rut in the carpet so to speak. By this time (several weeks) I was getting a bit fed up with it all, the fun aspect was wearing off. ON the final visit to psychology I asked the psychology person to please allow me to take the assessment for the course just to bring this to an end and they agreed there and then.
So I did the assessment and was sent away to await the result. A couple of days later I had a visit from the psychologist who took me for my assessment. she took me to one side and told me I had got top marks in the assessment as they expected and handed me a formal letter to keep informing me of same. They also told me that a copy would be put in my permanent file and a third copy sent to the OMU !   finally and I have to say being handed that letter made my day. I was not bothered again. That is until my parole when the OMU tried their best to sink my parole by saying I had refused to do a course I needed, Out came the letter and I got it anyway.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Sy6oiJbEk
Looking back now it was funny and a bit farcical but it would have been a lot more serious if I wasn't on a fixed sentence and parole only made a few months difference anyway but OH dear reading other comments it appears to be quite common.
 I cannot agree with Derek Arnold that prison is in anyway a good thing but I would like to wish anyone who has to go through this the very best of luck. Derek is absolutely right you have to steer your own course, be the architect of your own fate. Don`t rely on anyone in the system to do it for you but tread carefully some staff dont like you taking the initiative as in my case.


Edited
6 Years Ago by CC
Derek Arnold
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Prison is necessary and an inevitable part of society but the system as it stands simply does not work.

There are career criminals for whom prison is a hazard of the job. For such people, their knowledge of the system is usually quite extensive and they can play the system to gain the most leverage they can (not criticizing, just stating a fact). If we're completely honest, there are those who we are all pleased are locked away, and who should remain there. Others still have no business being in prison at all.

One of the main problems with the prison system is the wonderful Oasys system, the sentence plan and the delivery of sentence plan recommendations. Oasys may suggest that behaviour of a certain kind is indicative of a certain personality, the offender manager is able to interpret that to mean the person should attend a particular course. Whether that course is relevant is immaterial, it's simply a box-ticking exercise that has no real value and no intrinsic meaning. Now the problems begin because the course in question may not be available in a particular prison, or because of said interpretations, is so over-subscribed that the waiting list is months long. So getting onto a course that you do not need and is not immediately available, is the first barrier.

You may wait months for the course, only then to be told that you are not eligible because those delivering the courses have different criteria to those who demand you attend. These two discreet areas will not communicate to ensure that the prisoner is correctly assigned, it is for the 'offender' to try to sort out the problem, which is very difficult in an environment in which you have no standing.

Perhaps the worst scenario is when you are not actually told that you will need to attend a course in order to progress and having waited for months or even years, you expect to move on only then to be told that you need to do, for example, 'Victim Awareness'. Suddenly, your progression hopes and plans are shattered; the current course is in progress, the next two courses are fully booked or indeed that course is not available at your prison - progression ... none.

This requirement to attend a non-existent course is one of the major causes of frustration and despair, especially after someone has planned their progress in their heads, counted down the days (perhaps to move to Cat D) only to be derailed at the last minute. These men may be in prison, but they have the same aspirations and ambitions, the same concerns for their family.

When I was imprisoned in 2012, I was fortunate to be told by an older, wiser soul that I would most likely need to do the 'Victim Awareness' course, most men were. Had he not told me, I would never have known. I got signed up and the course was done. When my cat D application was being discussed, I had exactly what I have just described, happen - the OS said that I would have to do this course before I could move and she was surprised to learn that I had already completed it because my file did not contain the information. I had to show her my certificate to prove the point. 

This is one rather simplistic situation which could have had a devastating impact on me at a time I was looking forward to progressing.

The motto of the story really is that YOUR progress is in YOUR hands, you can't depend on the prison system to guide you, or to steer you in the right direction. It will leave everything to chance, and no one really cares about the impact on your mental health when things like this happen.

Good luck to everyone who is trying to progress.
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Thorswrath - 25 Feb 18 11:57 AM
Square - 24 Feb 18 2:16 PM
@Wentworth2 I disagree that 'prison just does not work'. I think our prison system doesn't work. I think prison could be a wonderful thing for people who have taken the wrong route in life. In real terms, for most (and I understand that for some, this can't be the case) days should be highly structured and include education, social and practical skills and work which will benifit the wider community. This should be continued into life beyond the fence... The problem, however, is the majority of people don't give two-hoots about rehabilitating and turning offenders into law abiding citize- ansll t hey care about is locking people up and giving them nothing other than bread and water. We are all then amazed that people re-offend after treating them like cr@p.

When does punishment stop and rehabilitation start, where's the line? I was lucky to avoid a custodial sentence and i'm grateful because the resources i have used which are not available in prison have helped me tremendously, but that's more to do with the fact i wanted help as opposed to being told. People with addiction issues will find it extremely difficult to 'recover' in prison because part of dealing with addiction is being in a place of safety and being able to show your vulnerable side to those who want to help and get to the core of the problem. With prison i imagine you have to be on your guard at all times and be very careful who you talk to and associate with. 

I agree that days should be highly structured with emphasis on education and development of skills but what do you do when an inmate is off his face on spice and doesn't want to accept the help available? There should be more consideration to those who want help and are capable. There are of course the inmates who are extremely dangerous and pyschotic who probably wont be that receptive to interventions, but i think with people who have gone down the wrong road in life, ie: they have anger problems due to troubled upbringings or got involved in dealing etc can turn their lives around providing the support and structure is there, if people believe it's possible and they see it's possible then they will go for it, i think a lot of the time they haven't been offered alternative routes in life and feel trapped in their cycle of criminality when they are outside. i think its really tough to go through prison and expect to be a changed person for the better, often it's more of a traumatic experience especially for vulnerable adults or they get in with the wrong crowd and end up re-inforcing their criminal identity rather than disolving it. I'm no expert and that's just my 2cents

Just like any group within the human race, there are those who engage and those who don't. Not all prisoners are career criminals, but even some of those can decide to change their ways. Equally, there are people in prison who would like to turn their lives around, but can't do it in that environment. It's good to hear government mutterings about keeping certain groups out of prison, provided they engage with their treatment (e.g. mental health, drugs, alcohol...), but will they ever get round to doing something about it? Of course, after that you have to deal with the effects of having a criminal record. Admittedly, that should be easier without a prison sentence to your name, but it will still be there for a while.

=========================================================================================================

If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)

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Square - 24 Feb 18 2:16 PM
@Wentworth2 I disagree that 'prison just does not work'. I think our prison system doesn't work. I think prison could be a wonderful thing for people who have taken the wrong route in life. In real terms, for most (and I understand that for some, this can't be the case) days should be highly structured and include education, social and practical skills and work which will benifit the wider community. This should be continued into life beyond the fence... The problem, however, is the majority of people don't give two-hoots about rehabilitating and turning offenders into law abiding citize- ansll t hey care about is locking people up and giving them nothing other than bread and water. We are all then amazed that people re-offend after treating them like cr@p.

When does punishment stop and rehabilitation start, where's the line? I was lucky to avoid a custodial sentence and i'm grateful because the resources i have used which are not available in prison have helped me tremendously, but that's more to do with the fact i wanted help as opposed to being told. People with addiction issues will find it extremely difficult to 'recover' in prison because part of dealing with addiction is being in a place of safety and being able to show your vulnerable side to those who want to help and get to the core of the problem. With prison i imagine you have to be on your guard at all times and be very careful who you talk to and associate with. 

I agree that days should be highly structured with emphasis on education and development of skills but what do you do when an inmate is off his face on spice and doesn't want to accept the help available? There should be more consideration to those who want help and are capable. There are of course the inmates who are extremely dangerous and pyschotic who probably wont be that receptive to interventions, but i think with people who have gone down the wrong road in life, ie: they have anger problems due to troubled upbringings or got involved in dealing etc can turn their lives around providing the support and structure is there, if people believe it's possible and they see it's possible then they will go for it, i think a lot of the time they haven't been offered alternative routes in life and feel trapped in their cycle of criminality when they are outside. i think its really tough to go through prison and expect to be a changed person for the better, often it's more of a traumatic experience especially for vulnerable adults or they get in with the wrong crowd and end up re-inforcing their criminal identity rather than disolving it. I'm no expert and that's just my 2cents

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@Wentworth2 I disagree that 'prison just does not work'. I think our prison system doesn't work. I think prison could be a wonderful thing for people who have taken the wrong route in life. In real terms, for most (and I understand that for some, this can't be the case) days should be highly structured and include education, social and practical skills and work which will benifit the wider community. This should be continued into life beyond the fence... The problem, however, is the majority of people don't give two-hoots about rehabilitating and turning offenders into law abiding citize- ansll t hey care about is locking people up and giving them nothing other than bread and water. We are all then amazed that people re-offend after treating them like cr@p.
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/17/uk-brutal-prisons-failing-violence-drugs-gangs

When will society learn that prison just does not work? Or does it?
GO


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