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Police and MPs have the highest number of SO, per head of population


Police and MPs have the highest number of SO, per head of population

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punter99
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With yet another MP in the news, accused of sexual misconduct, I thought I would do a bit of digging into the numbers.

There are about 67,000 SO, on the register in the UK, out of a population of 67 million. That means there is approximately one SO, for every 1,000 people, in the general population. But what about the MPs who created the register and the police who enforce it?

According to recent figures, there were 251 officers in the Met police under investigation for sexual offences, out of 34,000. That is one in every 135, nearly ten times as many per head, as the general population. MPs are no better. 5 out of 651 are under investigation, which is one SO for every 130 MPs.

But the worst by far, are Greater Manchester Police with 158 SO, out of just 7,000 officers. That is one SO for every 44 serving officers.

Six police forces, including the Met and GMP are now in special measures. 

So how does this compare with say, the teaching profession?  You might imagine that teachers are particularly at risk, given that they have access to children, but there were just 275 facing investigation for sexual misconduct, out of a total of 625,000. That is only one in every 2,000, which is less than half the rate in the general population.
khafka
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This is actually something I've been mildly interested in but not sure where to look for the data and it's certainly not something I want in my search history at the moment haha.

But basically - The officers (I assume officers?) that dig through hard drives and look at all the images to catalog them and tally them up for offences etc. I wonder how many of them have gone on to commit offences of image possession/develop some kind of addiction or attraction to the material.

I believe they get regular counseling to keep them on the straight and narrow but it's certainly something that pops into my head.

punter99
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khafka - 2 Jul 22 1:11 PM
This is actually something I've been mildly interested in but not sure where to look for the data and it's certainly not something I want in my search history at the moment haha.

But basically - The officers (I assume officers?) that dig through hard drives and look at all the images to catalogue them and tally them up for offences etc. I wonder how many of them have gone on to commit offences of image possession/develop some kind of addiction or attraction to the material.

I believe they get regular counselling to keep them on the straight and narrow but it's certainly something that pops into my head.

This is a very good point. Some time ago, I saw an advert from a police force, who were recruiting civilians, to grade these kinds of images. I was shocked that somebody other than the police, were allowed to do that. Obviously, the people recruited would have to pass all sorts of psychological tests, to determine if they were suitable, but it is a job that is done by non-police as well. The official terminology for these staff is "law enforcement employees, that provide tactical support to various areas of operation at the police force". But they are civilians, not police officers.

The other people who regularly look at these kinds of images for work, are the people working for the Internet Watch Foundation, an organisation who take down images and websites. At the same time, a journalist, who might be investigating these crimes, or an academic, who might be investigating why people look at these images, can still be prosecuted, for simply being in possession of such images, because there is no automatic defence for either of these professions. 

So it raises an interesting question. If simply looking at an image harms a child, then how can it be ok, for any person to look at these images? But also, what effect does it have on the viewer? The argument has always been, that some images are obscene, because they "deprave and corrupt" the viewer. That was the old law, used to prosecute people for selling hard core porn, in the UK, back in the pre internet days. It has now been abandoned, largely because the internet made it impossible to enforce, but also because it was too difficult to prove in court. Cases would go to court and the jury would say; "we are not corrupted and depraved, when we see porn, so nobody else would be either". A number of high profile prosecutions of porn sellers, in the 1970s, collapsed, because of this.

But the basic idea, that just seeing an image corrupts somebody and makes them depraved, never really went away. It is still the rationale, put forward by people like the NSPCC, Barnados, etc, as the reason for making possession of images of children illegal. They still argue that just seeing an image, will make somebody go out and harm a child.

The courts have fudged the issue, by saying that it is causing demand for more images, that is the problem, not the viewing of any particular image. That suggests that the real crime somebody is committing, is not harming a child, by viewing their image, but harming FUTURE children, who might be abused, by a producer of images, IN THE FUTURE, because of the demand that somebody has created, by viewing an image today. So I would argue, that if this is the case, then you need to look at how the person acquired the images, not whether they looked at them. It is the act of acquiring the image, which creates the demand, not the viewing of it.

The second argument, put forward by the courts, sometimes alongside, or instead of, the creating demand argument, is the argument that viewing causes harm to the child directly. This argument fails to distinguish between why somebody looks at an image, because the child is always harmed, either by having their privacy invaded, or by being reminded of the abuse they suffered, REGARDLESS of why the image was viewed. But that means a police officer harms the child too. They invade the child's privacy by looking at the image too. This would be an argument for saying that nobody, including the police, should ever be allowed to look at these images. But you never hear this argument being made, in court.

Although it is never stated by any judge, there is a presumption, which goes to the heart of the question, you are asking, which is that SOME people, can view an image and do no harm, because SOME people are corrupted and depraved, when they see an image and other people are not. This has always been the logic, behind all censorship. When a middle class person looks at a picture of a naked person, it is called art, but when a poor person looks at the same naked picture, it is called pornographic. That is because the people who set the rules, usually come from middle class backgrounds and don't believe that THEY can be corrupted by nudity, but at the same time, they DO believe that poorer people, or people who are not like them, CAN be corrupted, by seeing nude images.

This same argument underlies the law's thinking about images of children. The belief is that SOME people will be corrupted, by seeing these images and they are monsters, who need to be thrown in jail, but at the same time, others who see the exact same images won't be corrupted by them and those people are allowed to live perfectly normal lives, without ever needing to be monitored or risk assessed. But how do you tell the difference, between the two groups? At the moment, we only have one way of doing that, which is to check their browsing history and use that to read the person's mind. In the absence of a pre-crime division, in the police, which can predict who will abuse a child, after looking at an image, this is the best we can do. I guess it is an argument for saying that everybody who looks at these kinds of images, should be monitored by the police, irrespective of whether they are police themselves, or civilians working for the police, or just members of the general public. They should all receive unannounced visits, every 6 months, to check if they have been corrupted or depraved by the images they have seen. They should all have monitoring software installed on their devices, to make sure they have not committed a thought crime.

Neither one of these arguments has anything to do with possession though. It is not the act of possession that harms the child, it is the thoughts that exist in the mind of the person viewing the image, which matter. It is not about possession, or viewing, or creating demand. This all about thought crimes.


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punter99 - 4 Jul 22 11:42 AM
 This all about thought crimes.

Yes. That's the law as it is written. The same laws will prosecute a person for possession of a cartoon or drawing when it is obvious that no actual harm is involved.

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punter99 - 2 Jul 22 10:45 AM
With yet another MP in the news, accused of sexual misconduct, I thought I would do a bit of digging into the numbers.

There are about 67,000 SO, on the register in the UK, out of a population of 67 million. That means there is approximately one SO, for every 1,000 people, in the general population. But what about the MPs who created the register and the police who enforce it?

According to recent figures, there were 251 officers in the Met police under investigation for sexual offences, out of 34,000. That is one in every 135, nearly ten times as many per head, as the general population. MPs are no better. 5 out of 651 are under investigation, which is one SO for every 130 MPs.

But the worst by far, are Greater Manchester Police with 158 SO, out of just 7,000 officers. That is one SO for every 44 serving officers.

Six police forces, including the Met and GMP are now in special measures. 

So how does this compare with say, the teaching profession?  You might imagine that teachers are particularly at risk, given that they have access to children, but there were just 275 facing investigation for sexual misconduct, out of a total of 625,000. That is only one in every 2,000, which is less than half the rate in the general population.

The only point I'd like to make here is that you seem to be assuming that everyone under investigation is guilty. That's what certain media outlets want everyone to believe about SO's, but it isn't necessarily true, is it? It might not be easy to get hold of the numbers in those groups who have actually been convicted (or cautioned), but that would be a better comparison. As you say, teachers are particularly at risk, not least from false or malicious allegations, but once again it should come down to how many have actually been convicted or cautioned, not just arrested. I'm not sure whether it's relevant to this discussion whether a police force is in special measures, unless they're letting people commit offences on their work computers.

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punter99
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AB2014 - 10 Jul 22 2:38 PM
punter99 - 2 Jul 22 10:45 AM
With yet another MP in the news, accused of sexual misconduct, I thought I would do a bit of digging into the numbers.

There are about 67,000 SO, on the register in the UK, out of a population of 67 million. That means there is approximately one SO, for every 1,000 people, in the general population. But what about the MPs who created the register and the police who enforce it?

According to recent figures, there were 251 officers in the Met police under investigation for sexual offences, out of 34,000. That is one in every 135, nearly ten times as many per head, as the general population. MPs are no better. 5 out of 651 are under investigation, which is one SO for every 130 MPs.

But the worst by far, are Greater Manchester Police with 158 SO, out of just 7,000 officers. That is one SO for every 44 serving officers.

Six police forces, including the Met and GMP are now in special measures. 

So how does this compare with say, the teaching profession?  You might imagine that teachers are particularly at risk, given that they have access to children, but there were just 275 facing investigation for sexual misconduct, out of a total of 625,000. That is only one in every 2,000, which is less than half the rate in the general population.

The only point I'd like to make here is that you seem to be assuming that everyone under investigation is guilty. That's what certain media outlets want everyone to believe about SO's, but it isn't necessarily true, is it? It might not be easy to get hold of the numbers in those groups who have actually been convicted (or cautioned), but that would be a better comparison. As you say, teachers are particularly at risk, not least from false or malicious allegations, but once again it should come down to how many have actually been convicted or cautioned, not just arrested. I'm not sure whether it's relevant to this discussion whether a police force is in special measures, unless they're letting people commit offences on their work computers.

It's generally agreed, that the number of sexual offences in society, is probably under reported, rather than over reported, so the ones that were recorded as an allegation still matter, even if not all will be convicted. Then there is the problem, that many allegations don't result in a conviction, because of the victim refusing to give evidence, or the CPS dropping the case, because the victim is seen as 'unreliable' (e.g. the Rochdale/Rotherham grooming cases). With police, there is the additional problem, of the police closing ranks to protect each other, plus their use of early retirement, as a way to avoid an embarrassing disciplinary hearing. This also skews the conviction figures and makes things appear much better than they really are.

As for police forces being placed in special measures, this is relevant, to some extent, because of some of the reasons relate to a toxic culture within policing, that goes beyond a few 'bad apples'. If we take the Met for example.  

'HMIC cited a series of scandals: from the murder of Sarah Everard by the serving Met officer Wayne Couzens; the strip-searching of innocent children such as Child Q; stop and search controversies such as that of the champion athlete Bianca Williams; and grossly offensive attitudes among officials revealed by messages exchanged between officers at Charing Cross police station.  The force that considers itself a leader in law enforcement was told in the letter there were concerns about “a persistently large backlog of online child abuse referrals”.

The Met and probably the 5 other forces, that are in special measures, seem to have a problem, with employing a much greater percentage of bad apples, than most other professions. 
 
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