|
JASB
|
|
Group: Awaiting Activation
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 1.6K
|
+x+x+x+xHi both Thanks for reply but just for clarity I wasn't meaning the "SOR Relevant date" (date the 15 yrs clock starts) as I am sure you remember the conversations I am having with all "legal" authorities on that point. For ref though the 15yr clock starts on the date you first sign the SOR, which in the normal case is after you are released from Prison, as you normally get sentenced and go straight to jail. In my case, and as the example in the Pt 2 guidance of the SO Act, the victim being under 18 and the duration between conviction and sentencing being so long, my "Relevant date" started when I signed the day after my guilty plea / conviction date and not the date I was released and signed in the local Police station. This topic came to mind when i was using the Unlock calculator and thought "what is the actual date of my conviction? Guilty plea in Court or the sentencing date? Personally I think I been under the wrong understanding and it is the prior and not later date. Just wanted others opinion though. The system sees the date when you were found guilty as the date of conviction. The law specifically says that any time spent in prison in relation to the offence is not included in the fifteen years. I'm sure I've said this before, but the law makes no mention of the age of the victim when calculating any dates or length of notification period. That's about it. There have been discussions about Home Office guidance, but that is not law. The Home Secretary has the power to amend the notification periods established by law, but that has to be done through the law, not through guidance. Hi If you look at the guidance on Pt 2 of the SO Act 2003 - Sept 2018 Page 11 - 13 you will see the example that shows the "relevant date" as I mentioned in my case. The College of Police policy, HO Sex Offender management tean and Unlock also agree. --------------------------- Establishing the “relevant date” For most offenders, the “relevant date” is the date of conviction, caution, finding etc. for an offence listed in Schedule 3. The notification period begins at the relevant date. However, section 132 clarifies that where an offence in Schedule 3 has a sentence (or other disposal, e.g. hospital order) threshold, the offender is to be regarded as having a conviction or a relevant finding for the offence only when a threshold is met. Essentially, the notification requirements will only apply where the thresholds are met and this may not be known until the offender is dealt with by the court. Therefore, a person should only be treated as convicted for a relevant offence when any applicable sentence threshold is met. For example, paragraph 18 of Schedule 3 specifies that an adult offender only becomes subject to the notification requirements for the offence of sexual assault (section 3 of the 12 2003 Act) when: • The victim was under 18, or • The offender is, in respect of the offence, sentenced to a term of imprisonment, detained in a hospital or sentenced to a 12 month community sentence. For example, three adult offenders are convicted of sexual assault on 1 June. The first offender committed the offence against a child under the age of 18; therefore his “relevant
date” would be 1 June regardless of the sentence he subsequently receives (other than an absolute discharge) on that or a later date. The second offender committed the offence against someone aged 18 or over and on 1 July he is sentenced to a term of imprisonment; therefore his “relevant date” would be 1 July. The third offender also committed the offence against someone aged 18 or over and he too is sentenced on 1 July but only receives a six months community punishment for the offence; therefore he does not meet the threshold and does not become subject to the notification requirements. There exists the possibility that an offender is convicted of an offence for which there is no sentence or disposal threshold and on a later date is given an absolute discharge by the court. Absolute discharges do not trigger the notification requirements. If this happens, the offender will have to comply with the notification requirements from the relevant date but will cease to have to comply when he receives an absolute discharge. ----------------------------------------- cheers and hope you agree I've had a (relatively) quick look at that list. It certainly is a very long list, and has all sorts of conditions and thresholds in it. It looks like you're right, though. Even so, if someone is convicted and then bailed to reappear in court for sentencing and is directed to notify by the police within three days, that ought to count for something. After all, they can't be required to notify if they're not actually eligible to notify, if you see what I mean. If they are later given a sentence that makes them a relevant offender, they can't be expected to start all over again. I'm happy to agree that the relevant police officer(s) might have exceeded their authority, if the conviction didn't eventually lead to the convicted person being a relevant offender. After all, people can be convicted years later of historic offences, so why not credit people for historic notification? In theory, if the sentence doesn't meet the threshold, any supposed notification requirement should end immediately. Does it in practice, though? Hi Couldn't say it better. A previous OM agreed with me and fought my case but the Force Solicitor and MOS... (whatever the initials are  ) did ignore this and deflected their replies to supporting my SOPO discharge. There is a big justice bill change coming through - possibly in new year so I' hoping they support the SOR recommendation that the Police can recommend a discharge of an SOR requirement at the 10 yr point if someone is suitable. Lets all hope they see the common sence in the amendments. Take care
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
|
|
|
|
|
AB2014
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.1K,
Visits: 7K
|
+x+x+xHi both Thanks for reply but just for clarity I wasn't meaning the "SOR Relevant date" (date the 15 yrs clock starts) as I am sure you remember the conversations I am having with all "legal" authorities on that point. For ref though the 15yr clock starts on the date you first sign the SOR, which in the normal case is after you are released from Prison, as you normally get sentenced and go straight to jail. In my case, and as the example in the Pt 2 guidance of the SO Act, the victim being under 18 and the duration between conviction and sentencing being so long, my "Relevant date" started when I signed the day after my guilty plea / conviction date and not the date I was released and signed in the local Police station. This topic came to mind when i was using the Unlock calculator and thought "what is the actual date of my conviction? Guilty plea in Court or the sentencing date? Personally I think I been under the wrong understanding and it is the prior and not later date. Just wanted others opinion though. The system sees the date when you were found guilty as the date of conviction. The law specifically says that any time spent in prison in relation to the offence is not included in the fifteen years. I'm sure I've said this before, but the law makes no mention of the age of the victim when calculating any dates or length of notification period. That's about it. There have been discussions about Home Office guidance, but that is not law. The Home Secretary has the power to amend the notification periods established by law, but that has to be done through the law, not through guidance. Hi If you look at the guidance on Pt 2 of the SO Act 2003 - Sept 2018 Page 11 - 13 you will see the example that shows the "relevant date" as I mentioned in my case. The College of Police policy, HO Sex Offender management tean and Unlock also agree. --------------------------- Establishing the “relevant date” For most offenders, the “relevant date” is the date of conviction, caution, finding etc. for an offence listed in Schedule 3. The notification period begins at the relevant date. However, section 132 clarifies that where an offence in Schedule 3 has a sentence (or other disposal, e.g. hospital order) threshold, the offender is to be regarded as having a conviction or a relevant finding for the offence only when a threshold is met. Essentially, the notification requirements will only apply where the thresholds are met and this may not be known until the offender is dealt with by the court. Therefore, a person should only be treated as convicted for a relevant offence when any applicable sentence threshold is met. For example, paragraph 18 of Schedule 3 specifies that an adult offender only becomes subject to the notification requirements for the offence of sexual assault (section 3 of the 12 2003 Act) when: • The victim was under 18, or • The offender is, in respect of the offence, sentenced to a term of imprisonment, detained in a hospital or sentenced to a 12 month community sentence. For example, three adult offenders are convicted of sexual assault on 1 June. The first offender committed the offence against a child under the age of 18; therefore his “relevant
date” would be 1 June regardless of the sentence he subsequently receives (other than an absolute discharge) on that or a later date. The second offender committed the offence against someone aged 18 or over and on 1 July he is sentenced to a term of imprisonment; therefore his “relevant date” would be 1 July. The third offender also committed the offence against someone aged 18 or over and he too is sentenced on 1 July but only receives a six months community punishment for the offence; therefore he does not meet the threshold and does not become subject to the notification requirements. There exists the possibility that an offender is convicted of an offence for which there is no sentence or disposal threshold and on a later date is given an absolute discharge by the court. Absolute discharges do not trigger the notification requirements. If this happens, the offender will have to comply with the notification requirements from the relevant date but will cease to have to comply when he receives an absolute discharge. ----------------------------------------- cheers and hope you agree I've had a (relatively) quick look at that list. It certainly is a very long list, and has all sorts of conditions and thresholds in it. It looks like you're right, though. Even so, if someone is convicted and then bailed to reappear in court for sentencing and is directed to notify by the police within three days, that ought to count for something. After all, they can't be required to notify if they're not actually eligible to notify, if you see what I mean. If they are later given a sentence that makes them a relevant offender, they can't be expected to start all over again. I'm happy to agree that the relevant police officer(s) might have exceeded their authority, if the conviction didn't eventually lead to the convicted person being a relevant offender. After all, people can be convicted years later of historic offences, so why not credit people for historic notification? In theory, if the sentence doesn't meet the threshold, any supposed notification requirement should end immediately. Does it in practice, though?
=========================================================================================================
If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
|
|
|
|
|
JASB
|
|
Group: Awaiting Activation
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 1.6K
|
+x+xHi both Thanks for reply but just for clarity I wasn't meaning the "SOR Relevant date" (date the 15 yrs clock starts) as I am sure you remember the conversations I am having with all "legal" authorities on that point. For ref though the 15yr clock starts on the date you first sign the SOR, which in the normal case is after you are released from Prison, as you normally get sentenced and go straight to jail. In my case, and as the example in the Pt 2 guidance of the SO Act, the victim being under 18 and the duration between conviction and sentencing being so long, my "Relevant date" started when I signed the day after my guilty plea / conviction date and not the date I was released and signed in the local Police station. This topic came to mind when i was using the Unlock calculator and thought "what is the actual date of my conviction? Guilty plea in Court or the sentencing date? Personally I think I been under the wrong understanding and it is the prior and not later date. Just wanted others opinion though. The system sees the date when you were found guilty as the date of conviction. The law specifically says that any time spent in prison in relation to the offence is not included in the fifteen years. I'm sure I've said this before, but the law makes no mention of the age of the victim when calculating any dates or length of notification period. That's about it. There have been discussions about Home Office guidance, but that is not law. The Home Secretary has the power to amend the notification periods established by law, but that has to be done through the law, not through guidance. Hi If you look at the guidance on Pt 2 of the SO Act 2003 - Sept 2018 Page 11 - 13 you will see the example that shows the "relevant date" as I mentioned in my case. The College of Police policy, HO Sex Offender management tean and Unlock also agree. --------------------------- Establishing the “relevant date” For most offenders, the “relevant date” is the date of conviction, caution, finding etc. for an offence listed in Schedule 3. The notification period begins at the relevant date. However, section 132 clarifies that where an offence in Schedule 3 has a sentence (or other disposal, e.g. hospital order) threshold, the offender is to be regarded as having a conviction or a relevant finding for the offence only when a threshold is met. Essentially, the notification requirements will only apply where the thresholds are met and this may not be known until the offender is dealt with by the court. Therefore, a person should only be treated as convicted for a relevant offence when any applicable sentence threshold is met. For example, paragraph 18 of Schedule 3 specifies that an adult offender only becomes subject to the notification requirements for the offence of sexual assault (section 3 of the 12 2003 Act) when: • The victim was under 18, or • The offender is, in respect of the offence, sentenced to a term of imprisonment, detained in a hospital or sentenced to a 12 month community sentence. For example, three adult offenders are convicted of sexual assault on 1 June. The first offender committed the offence against a child under the age of 18; therefore his “relevant
date” would be 1 June regardless of the sentence he subsequently receives (other than an absolute discharge) on that or a later date. The second offender committed the offence against someone aged 18 or over and on 1 July he is sentenced to a term of imprisonment; therefore his “relevant date” would be 1 July. The third offender also committed the offence against someone aged 18 or over and he too is sentenced on 1 July but only receives a six months community punishment for the offence; therefore he does not meet the threshold and does not become subject to the notification requirements. There exists the possibility that an offender is convicted of an offence for which there is no sentence or disposal threshold and on a later date is given an absolute discharge by the court. Absolute discharges do not trigger the notification requirements. If this happens, the offender will have to comply with the notification requirements from the relevant date but will cease to have to comply when he receives an absolute discharge. ----------------------------------------- cheers and hope you agree
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
|
|
|
|
|
AB2014
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.1K,
Visits: 7K
|
+xHi both Thanks for reply but just for clarity I wasn't meaning the "SOR Relevant date" (date the 15 yrs clock starts) as I am sure you remember the conversations I am having with all "legal" authorities on that point. For ref though the 15yr clock starts on the date you first sign the SOR, which in the normal case is after you are released from Prison, as you normally get sentenced and go straight to jail. In my case, and as the example in the Pt 2 guidance of the SO Act, the victim being under 18 and the duration between conviction and sentencing being so long, my "Relevant date" started when I signed the day after my guilty plea / conviction date and not the date I was released and signed in the local Police station. This topic came to mind when i was using the Unlock calculator and thought "what is the actual date of my conviction? Guilty plea in Court or the sentencing date? Personally I think I been under the wrong understanding and it is the prior and not later date. Just wanted others opinion though. The system sees the date when you were found guilty as the date of conviction. The law specifically says that any time spent in prison in relation to the offence is not included in the fifteen years. I'm sure I've said this before, but the law makes no mention of the age of the victim when calculating any dates or length of notification period. That's about it. There have been discussions about Home Office guidance, but that is not law. The Home Secretary has the power to amend the notification periods established by law, but that has to be done through the law, not through guidance.
=========================================================================================================
If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
|
|
|
|
|
JASB
|
|
Group: Awaiting Activation
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 1.6K
|
Hi both
Thanks for reply but just for clarity I wasn't meaning the "SOR Relevant date" (date the 15 yrs clock starts) as I am sure you remember the conversations I am having with all "legal" authorities on that point. For ref though the 15yr clock starts on the date you first sign the SOR, which in the normal case is after you are released from Prison, as you normally get sentenced and go straight to jail.
In my case, and as the example in the Pt 2 guidance of the SO Act, the victim being under 18 and the duration between conviction and sentencing being so long, my "Relevant date" started when I signed the day after my guilty plea / conviction date and not the date I was released and signed in the local Police station.
This topic came to mind when i was using the Unlock calculator and thought "what is the actual date of my conviction? Guilty plea in Court or the sentencing date?
Personally I think I been under the wrong understanding and it is the prior and not later date.
Just wanted others opinion though.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
|
|
|
|
|
punter99
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 722,
Visits: 5.3K
|
The conviction date is often earlier than the sentencing date, with a guilty plea. So the SOR starts on the date of conviction and the SOPO/SHPO starts on the date of sentencing. But the spent date is calculated starting on the conviction date, although it can be extended if there is a SHPO in place.
|
|
|
|
|
xDanx
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 355,
Visits: 10K
|
+xHi I think most will know the events surrounding the "strangeness" surrounding my "sentencing" but I have an interesting question. I pleaded guilty in Nov 2011 but was not sentenced until sept 2012 and was incarcerated for 4yrs (2 in and 2 on lic). I know that on Saturday my sentence became spent BUT in reality did my sentence actually become spent in 2022. I know it is spent now so looking forward to applying for insurance etc but just interested. Thanks I was always under the impression the start date was the day of sentencing, if someone was made subject to the SOR and a SHPO (in your case a SOPO?) after making a guilty plea, then what duration would be implemented? The judge at sentencing could technically alter the order over ruling any previous judge or who ever drafted the order, essentially making it an amendment? I 100% agree that the day in which a SOPO was given, or the first day you signed the SOR. SHOULD be the official start date. But clearly those who make up the rules in the first place, can easily bend them to their will.
|
|
|
|
|
JASB
|
|
Group: Awaiting Activation
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 1.6K
|
Hi
I think most will know the events surrounding the "strangeness" surrounding my "sentencing" but I have an interesting question.
I pleaded guilty in Nov 2011 but was not sentenced until sept 2012 and was incarcerated for 4yrs (2 in and 2 on lic).
I know that on Saturday my sentence became spent BUT in reality did my sentence actually become spent in 2022.
I know it is spent now so looking forward to applying for insurance etc but just interested.
Thanks
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
|
|
|
|