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Hobbit
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Cautions should never exist, police should just deem it such a petty crime and give the person a fine, all depends on the offence ! Obviously rape or major theft and full on real crimes the law should have control to act on it.
In my opinion its like the "I used my aunties oyster card" or "I took a packet of chewing gum" yeah it is breaking the law but a caution or prosecution is stupid, its no different in my books to someone smoking joints in public or vomiting on the side walk or not cleaning up there dogs doo doo.
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Hobbit
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Q3:
Yeah I thought of that also, there would need to be a simple and good system in place ie you receive 3 fines then Police/CPS can prosecute for a criminal record.... or something better at least. I do get what your suggesting, making it too easy would allow people to get away with petty crimes.
But you have to remember in the real world most people consider these petty crimes to be non existent or so petty it is not worth calling the police or going through the wasted money and resources on all parties involved, and even the police and cps believe this as you can see they issue out cautions internally a lot !
I use to work in a iceland and once the security guy caught a women stealing baked bean tins and a loaf of bread. Rather then call the police or turn into an episode of eastenders, they simply took a picture of her and banned her from the store. I have seen police arrest the Chinese man selling pirated dvds dozens of times, only to drive a bit further on and drop him off and confiscate his goods !
Cautions are such petty crimes, yeah your forced to admit guilt and accept the caution the alternatives are the police/cps pin A and B and make up C and D on you till you get a conviction in the court and have your lovely face and address appear in the newspapers and internet for life.
Anyhow that is how I feel on it, be it right or wrong I just feel it is not cost effective and does not help out the offenders job/life prospects, a fine would at least contribute for resources into putting real criminals away.
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Hobbit
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thanks aim, good to see the stats
As expected Drugs, Assault, burglary on the top of the list and sexual offences, and fraud at bottom.
Still remains to be seen what happens when Cautions are scrapped and if something else replaces it, prisons and the economy will not be able to handle prosecuting every single person that breaks the law !
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Hobbit
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Yeah what replaces it may just be as deadly or worse, fines will certainly help keep paying the bills for the "great" justice system but could see The Sun publishing was let off with just a £50 fine....
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Anonymous
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Thanks Stig & Aim. 5,084 cautions.
1,560 for cruelty or neglect of children (31%)
1,543 for possession weapons other than knives (30%)
962 for possession of knives (19%)
268 for possession of indecent photographs of a child (5%)
183 for taking, distributing or publishing indecent photographs of children (4%)
54 for supplying or offering to supply class A drugs (1%)
7 for child prostitution and pornography (0.1%)
49% were related to possession of weapons. A third for cruelty to children. Looks like 10% or so of these offences were sexual in nature. This article is beyond me ? How can anybody found guilty of a so called "serious crime" receive a Police Caution ???. Are you saying that out of 3.7 million recorded offences, that there were just 5084 cautions. How many of the 3.7 offences ended up going through the courts I wonder. And how many actual convictions were there ?. Is there any demographic data on certain Police areas or forces that issue these cautions ?. I would like to see any data on offending rates of those who have received a Police caution.
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Anonymous
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RP said...
thanks aim, good to see the stats
As expected Drugs, Assault, burglary on the top of the list and sexual offences, and fraud at bottom.
Still remains to be seen what happens when Cautions are scrapped and if something else replaces it, prisons and the economy will not be able to handle prosecuting every single person that breaks the law ! I cannot imagine what will replace "the caution", however "the economy" will always find a way to finance proceedings. Maybe, as we said before, a process of fines ? I know that in instances where legal aid is not provided, other options are available to the courts. The courts can put " Charges" on your property, or attachment of earnings proceedings.
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Anonymous
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IanC said...The police collect evidence and pass it on to the Public Prosecution Service, who then decide by percentage figures the chances of a conviction if it were to go to court. That includes chances of conviction, public cost etc. I’ve never heard of a caution being given for serious offences – a new one to me.<!--?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /--> Reported crime figures are notoriously skewed and that’s because they rely on people reporting them. Some offences aren’t reported due to the shame factor, others because it’s a pointless exercise trying to get your property back, or because the value of items is so low. For all serious offence where there is evidence the PPS would prosecute. Quite Right Ian. To clarify : The PPS or Public Prosecution Service is the service that works on behalf of the Police in Ireland. The CPS or Crown Prosecution Service is the service that works on behalf of the Police in the UK. I Also think that there are several other factors that sway in getting a case into court and in front of a judge and jury. 1. Public Interest - Are you Joe Public or a Soap Star ? 2. Weather or not the person has offended before - He or she may have had a caution before. 3. If the person can be covered by legal aid - Has the person assets. 4. The quality of evidence Plus much more.... As for getting a caution for a serious offence ? Well, I don't know how you define a serious offence, but I should imagine that ANYTHING that covers sexual acts against Children or Class A dealing will be NOT be in that remit. I am not, I repeat NOT highlighting certain crimes or certain offenders, but common sense will dictate that there are certain things that are just too serious to receive a caution.
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Anonymous
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RP said...
Cautions should never exist, police should just deem it such a petty crime and give the person a fine, all depends on the offence ! Obviously rape or major theft and full on real crimes the law should have control to act on it.
In my opinion its like the "I used my aunties oyster card" or "I took a packet of chewing gum" yeah it is breaking the law but a caution or prosecution is stupid, its no different in my books to someone smoking joints in public or vomiting on the side walk or not cleaning up there dogs doo doo. I am struggling with this RP. There is never any clarity, on these points of so called law enforcement. Were cautions introduced to (A) Free up the courts or (B) To allow Police forces to massage their crime figures ? The way I understand it is that somebody has to admit to a crime, to receive a caution. Are you saying that ALL petty crimes, should carry an option of the person who committed the crime, being able to opt for a simple fine ?. Where is the line drawn ? Can somebody who continues to commit petty crimes, over and over again, just carry on receiving fines ? We are surrounded by petty and stupid laws, and for those who break these laws, there are life changing consequences. Lets not lose track of this thread. There are people getting cautions for dealing class A, and taking indecent images of children. I am not playing judge or jury, but surely this cannot be right can it ?. I understand what you are saying, and yes, the Police seem to target silly things rather that the bigger issues, and that's the whole point. Using your Grandfathers Oyster card = Court Appearance + Criminal Record Taking Indecent Photos Of Children = Caution. I think the Police and the CPS should take a long hard look at the rule book.
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Foxtrot
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Don't forget that a 19 year old man who has a topless photo of his 17 year old girlfriend has committed a sexual offence against a child.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
Being ignorant is not a problem as long as you are willing to learn.
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The Stig
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This was an eye opener for me when watching sky news this morning. But like the way they just focus on sexual offences so in reality those who have a caution for serious crimes have got away scott free. news.sky.com/story/1147795/cautions-to-be-scrapped-for-serious-crimes
We all accept our crimes but should we be punished more for it?
We all accept our crimes but should we be punished more for it?
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aim
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Hi Stig, They mention a variety of crimes "New guidance will be issued immediately to ban the use of cautions for crimes including rape, manslaughter and robbery unless there are exceptional circumstances.". I am surprised that cautions were used for any of the offences listed above. From the article they account for 90% of the cautions for what they describe as serious crimes: 5,084 cautions 1,560 for cruelty or neglect of children (31%) 1,543 for possession weapons other than knives (30%) 962 for possession of knives (19%) 268 for possession of indecent photographs of a child (5%) 183 for taking, distributing or publishing indecent photographs of children (4%) 54 for supplying or offering to supply class A drugs (1%) 7 for child prostitution and pornography (0.1%) 49% were related to possession of weapons. A third for cruelty to children. Looks like 10% or so of these offences were sexual in nature. But looking at crime data www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_318761.pdf on sexual offences "Sexual offences recorded by the police increased 1% in the year ending March 2013, a total of 53,540 sexual offences across England and Wales. The number of offences of rape recorded by the police increased by 2% and other sexual offences by 1%. These increases come in the wake of the Operation Yewtree investigation, connected to the Jimmy Savile inquiry. There is evidence to suggest that there has been a substantial “Yewtree effect”whereby there is increased willingness on the part of the victims to come forward and report historic sexual offences. The police recorded 3.7 million offences in the year ending March 2013" So sexual offences are only 1.5% of recorded offences, but have around 10% of the cautions for serious crimes. So looking at this comparisons it seems more sexual offences are being dealt with by caution than are prosecuted. Violent crimes comprise around two-third of all crime but serious violence doesn't seem to be dealt with via a caution.
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aim
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Anonymous
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Yep, I stand corrected Q3 - not PPS but CPS.  The 19 year old may well get a caution, or not. Not everyone is prosecuted for everything, but if there was evidence, a burglary, robbery with an assault or things of that nature Ive never heard anyoneone get a caution for.
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Anonymous
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The police collect evidence and pass it on to the Public Prosecution Service, who then decide by percentage figures the chances of a conviction if it were to go to court. That includes chances of conviction, public cost etc. I’ve never heard of a caution being given for serious offences – a new one to me. Reported crime figures are notoriously skewed and that’s because they rely on people reporting them. Some offences aren’t reported due to the shame factor, others because it’s a pointless exercise trying to get your property back, or because the value of items is so low. For all serious offence where there is evidence the PPS would prosecute.
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