Q3:

I am really glad if you are working be it in security or anywhere, it is good to see a positive move.

IanC:

You are proof anyone can overcome anything, and make a better life for yourself. I like to hear success stories since they are rare, I recall only a few weeks ago I read how a women in her 50s was unable to get a job in the care industry simply since she got caught speeding and got it recorded on the PNC record a decade ago, which then shows up on every enhanced dbs job check she goes for, she is still unemployed after after a decade.

I hope to one day get employment be it self employed or a job in Tescos, and start living and paying taxes and enjoying life again while proving the government and law which fails to protect or look after us is as useless as useless can be!

An interesting take on China, yeah they are indeed "firewalled" in, lots of websites and internet is mainly blocked making it there own version of a controlled internet.

Still regardless where ever you can fit in and enjoy and make a life and money for yourself do it. UK is just a tiny spec of dust on the map. I still say you should go out there on a 30 day holiday, renew that Visa via a border run if you need to and see how life is out there at the moment.... even do some checking snooping around but remember your limited by whatever visa you have.

Is not the whole point of ROA, once its spent we should never have to declare it so we no longer get discriminated for it.... and then they simply make a phone call or tap on a keyboard and find all your history and convictions on the PNC.

Its like a breach of data protection and privacy, I don't agree with the discrimination and the law doing nothing to put food or roof under our heads you just have to do what you gotta do within reason and the legal route.

Does not help we all have to wait till 67 (well most of us) till we can get state pension!

Agree with the thoughts above, I too have disconnected from social media apps and websites.... they only do more damage then good.

Even if one did NOT have a criminal record/convictions it can still do damage to you, perhaps its living a lie but every single person on this planet has secrets and lives a lie.

One has to respect privacy and honesty at the same time of course however the less people that know about ones background and past records the better I recently learned that the hard way.... you can not trust telling anyone about your convictions since we live in a world where peoples mouths can't stay shut.

I call it Damage control

I have to admit I was ready to post some stuff after I read Ian's dream in Thailand, but after reading Q3s information which he did so in a bloody red colour somewhat turns one off from going to Thailand... even for a holiday !

Still as said above it can't be all that bad and hopefully not.

Still I agree in life one may have to chance it, maybe some practical advice here is perhaps Ader1 can book a holiday and stay out in Thailand for a few weeks just to get the feel of how life is out there and if it is what he really wants, if you hold a UK passport you are Visa free to stay there up to 30 days also.

Here is some info:

https://live-in-thailand.info/

Nice read up there IanC

Oddly I was looking to holiday there, It is good to hear you enjoy it over there and your right many people do seem to be keeping there British passports and frog leaping between Europe or Asia, and back again to the UK. Very important to keep that British passport!

I love Thai food but its sad to hear kfc/mcdonalds is expensive, I always heard that food and drink is cheap over there but when I googled around I noticed many people suggesting you need 40,000 -50,000 baht (over 1k I believe?) so sounded quite expensive all of a sudden.

I have heard in Thailand drugs is a big issue and have seen even one girl get caught with an joint on a documentary, landed in prison for weeks but lucky given a suspended sentence of 2 years.

Still sounds a lovely place to check out and work in, certainly may beat the dull grey clouds which mirrors the UK facial expressions at least !

My goodness reading the last 5 pages, I was thinking if this was the thailand or working abroad thread but was getting confused when I read Q3 saying
I am not a cartoon mouse, with a girlfriend call Minnie and trying to picture just that.

I do not need to add anything since its all been said perfectly by the regulars.

Ian,

You have this slightly annoying habit of reading into what people post what you want to read into it and ignoring what they actually say, while essentially repeating yourself over and over again. Obviously, the thing about losing 30 pounds and marrying whatever...was just a joke or flippancy on my part, but the point is that none of us are going to do exactly what we want. We all (or most of us) have to mediate our ambitions to reality - at least, to a degree.

I am not suggesting anyone should "wait around for someone to tell me if I am allowed to do something". That's just your spin on what I am posting. It's not what I am actually saying.

What I am saying, and what I think is reasonable, is that we all have to decide what we can realistically do in the circumstances we find ourselves in. That's the first step to real freedom - as opposed to the fantasy of running away to Thailand. It doesn't mean 'waiting around'. It means finding something you want to do that you can do without hurting anybody else.

It seems to me that you have had to make a decision on a similar basis. You didn't just pick the first thing you WANTED, you had to decide what was REALISTIC, and because your circumstances are pretty extreme, unfortunately that meant moving to Thailand. I say 'unfortunately' because it sounds to me that you could be an asset to the UK education system, which just demonstrates how backward and stupid this country is. But the reality is, you can't teach on the same basis in the UK because you'd probably be forced into a situation where you'd be breaking the law, right? So, in a way, you're living proof of my point - except that you've chosen to take some extra shortcuts and basically commit fraud by falsifying documents. 'Not declaring' is a different matter. I can't blame anybody for not declaring, as in most circumstances it's not an offence anyway, even if you lie, so that's not normally going to be an issue. The problem I have with you here is that you are encouraging people to take things one step further and actually break the law - and that in turn raises an awkward question of whether this is something we can condone. You're treating serious aspects of the law as an expedient. Are there people in prison who are in prison for doing exactly the same thing? Yes, I would say there are.

IanC has mentioned lying on insurance forms (fraud), fabricating references (fraud) and that people might want to make-up academic degrees (fraud). Go ahead and alter or edit your previous posts, but I've seen what you've written on here and so you're not going to kid me.

Most of us are here on this Forum because we treated the law expediently. I'm not saying we should venerate the law. I have the same contempt for the authorities that IanC has, but I'm also mindful that we are here to discuss how to build lives as reformed offenders, not as re-offenders pretending to be reformed. If we adopt the IanC attitude of: "I can't do this because the law or a rule says I can't, so I'll lie and get round it that way", then what do you think will happen to some of us? I imagine the prisons are full of people like Ian who say: "If politicians can lie and cheat and commit fraud, then surely I can lie and cheat to become a teacher". The result is predictable and I hardly need go on. You'll be found out. Of course, we all should know this already, since we are reformed offenders...right?

Of course, one legitimate way round this is to move abroad - but that's a completely different issue, and it's important to understand that IanC's circumstances were/are extreme. He has been treated disgracefully by the UK and he is understandably cynical and resentful, and I share most of his cynicism and resentment. But most of us on here have more down-to-earth challenges and we don't need to move abroad. Of course, if you WANT to move abroad, well that's different, and that's your prerogative, but most of us don't NEED to.

I'm not saying people should follow rules or laws blindly, but what I am suggesting is that committing further serious offences is both stupid and unnecessary. Yes, there's huge hypocrisy in society. Almost everyone has done something seriously dishonest that would amount to an imprisonable offence if detected, including the people who oppress and discriminate against those with convictions. We know this, but that does not excuse committing serious crimes and it will not be an excuse if and when caught. It's possible to build a new life doing something you want to do and enjoy doing without committing the very same mistakes that brought you here in the first place.

It's also important to be aware that IanC is exaggerating the issues in the UK. No doubt this is because of his own tragic situation - and I do sympathise - but his rather extreme calculus of things doesn't apply to most of us here. In the UK, you are allowed to lie about historic convictions, even if unspent, so long as they are not materially relevant to the job. Plus, many generally honest people exaggerate and tell little white lies, and that's just the nature of things. I'm not excusing lying, but there is a large category of condonable dishonesty that can be socially-acceptable. Most of us on here can be successful as long as we are realistic and thoughtful in how we move forward. What you're not allowed to do is cross the line and start fabricating credentials or lying about a criminal record when it is materially relevant to an employer's decision. Of course, in some situations this may be morally defensible, but if you do go down that path, then you must accept responsibility for your own actions and the consequences. Remember that there is always a choice.

I labour these points because it's important that people identify and understand what is both good and bad about IanC's message. I am not Ian's 'sparring partner'. Quite the contrary. I agree with 99% of what Ian is saying, especially the need for a different attitude and to take responsibility and not to follow rules blindly. I also agree about the over-bureaucratised and risk averse nature of the UK. And I think it is sad that my country cannot find a role for someone of Ian's evident talent and abilities. But things are how they are.

My issue with Ian is this crucial 1% of the issue - it's important that no-one is sucked into this naive belief that you can go through life telling significant lies without consequences. You will get caught out, and you might not like the consequences, but in those circumstances, sorry, I would have no sympathy. It would be the second time you have been caught and you will have lied in the full knowledge that you had other choices.

I think we have thrashed this out for long enough. I have a reason for putting IanC through the mill. I apologise for it, as he is a good poster - and he should be teaching in the UK! I also don't doubt that IanC has legitimate credentials. That in itself wasn't the issue, but it needs to be made clear that if you go down the dishonest route by fabricating things and committing fraud, then you are a re-offender, not a reformed offender, and you must accept that there can be severe consequences, if caught. As we are reformed offenders, this is a lesson we have already learnt, is it not? Do we really need to re-learn it? It may be that lots of successful or powerful people do this, and it may be (as Q3 demonstrates above) that most people are dishonest by default, and so there is a lot of hypocrisy in society, but none of that gives YOU an excuse to indulge in the same behaviour.

I'm not going to go into detail about my offending but it is not a petty offence. My conviction is very serious. I will be sentenced in a couple of months following a probation report and further psychiatric report, and I would say prison looks very likely. So I do not underestimate the challenges faced by offenders. When I am out of prison, I will not necessarily be able to do the first thing that pops into my head, but for me the point is finding something else that I want to do. These are ordinary life challenges that can be overcome legitimately and without having to commit further offences or do something as drastic as move to the other side of the world. There is always a choice to be made, and with care and thought, we can choose to do something worthwhile and that we want without, yet again, jeopardising our futures.

The real issue here is whether someone with convictions should commit significant illegal or immoral acts as a way round obstacles in their path. To an extent, this has to be a decision for the individual and it's not my intention to make generalised prescriptions as I realise there will be some desperate or sympathetic circumstances where dishonesty may be morally defensible. However, we all need to remember that this type of 'expedient rationalisation' – i.e. justfying the means (law-breaking) by reference to the ends (doing something you want to do) - is what brought many of us here in the first place. Even where the circumstances are sympathetic, the law (or some significant rule) has still been broken, and this carries with it consequences. It's easy, and a little naive, to sit behind a computer and deny this, but these consequences can be very real. For an intelligent person, there has to be a sensible middle ground, between the two extremes of 'blind obedience' and 'blind expediency'.

What I would propose is an attitude of 'thoughtful expediency', whereby on the one hand we don't follow rules blindly, but on the other hand we take care that we are not risking our own rehabilitation by committing further, serious offences. If that middle path means that we have to mediate or compromise some of our ambitions to reality, then so be it. It doesn't follow that we cannot do something that we 'want'.

This can be applied practically. For instance, even with unspent convictions or convictions that will never be spent, it is condonable to lie where the offence is historic or has little or no bearing on the employment being sought. So although there may be a rule that says disclosure is required when asked-for, in most circumstances you are allowed, in practice, to disregard that rule as petty and inconsequential. In any case, most employers still do not carry out basic DBS checks, and are highly unlikely to, and only a small section of employers are covered by a statutory requirement for DBS checks. For that reason, I do find it difficult to believe when some people claim on here that they have never had and cannot obtain employment since conviction. Sorry, but there must be more to it. You are either not trying hard enough or you have not thought about what you are doing. There is also the possibility of self-employment to consider - and we really need a dedicated section on the forum to discuss that.

I am not saying things are easy or simple for people with convictions, but it needn't be a melodrama either. It's possible to live a normal and successful life with a little care and thought. There are always choices. You don't have to commit further offences. You can do something that you want to do without repeating your previous mistakes.

Post Edited (RichardH) : 17/08/2013 19:23:01 (GMT+1)