AB2014
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+x+x+x+x+x+xJust so you are aware, I have looked into this for my DH and apparently it triggers as a concern flag for the MOSOVO team. So please don't do anything like that before you are well and truly off the SOR! Although I do also have to wonder, what would happen if you genuinely lost your passport (or, as I did when I was 19, manage to put it through the washing machine and ruin it!!) No worries, I wouldn't do that now, and anyway, if I did, I would be required by law to give them the new passport number (which would then stay on their system for 10 years, long after I'm off the SOR!). If you genuinely lose your passport and get a replacement, anyone on the SOR would be required to notify this to the PPU without being prompted to do so, and even if you're not planning on travelling. It's one of the basic requirements. No different from your passport expiring normally and getting a replacement - you have to report this on your own initiative. If you passport expires/is lost/damaged/stolen etc. and then you don't get a new one, I can't see anything saying you have to tell them that you simply don't have a passport anymore. But the minute you get a new one, you have to tell them, even if you're not going anywhere. Both the Passport office and DVLA have a marker on their system which alerts the PPU if there is any change - this was originally introduced to act as a deterrent after the PPUs discovered people changing their name, getting new documents and not notifying. As it's a legal requirement to notify within 3 days of any change to passport (or driving licence if no passport and DL used as identity document) this marker should be irrelevant to anyone (hopefully all on this forum) looking to play by the rules. What's the point in having to notify then, if they've already got it all worked out? What's the point of bureaucracy? Seriously?  Actually, I believe it may have started in the days when they could stop you travelling, but when the regulations about that changed, this bit didn't. BenS is really clued-up on this stuff, so I'm sure he'll know if that's how it happened. Thanks, AB2014, but I'm afraid I don't! What do you mean about "the days when they could stop you travelling"? Do you mean that in the past, RSOs were automatically barred from leaving the UK? There isn't much point in the whole bureaucratic process. If you leave the UK without notifying when you are required to notify, then they will just catch you when you come back. This has happened, there are news articles around, RSOs have been sentenced to a few months in prison for this. Technically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. It seems pointless having to notify travel when you are not banned from a certain country - especially for EU/EEA/Switzerland, when we at present have unconditional right of entry, so it all seems utterly pointless. More vengeance and punishment than any public good. It took me a while to look it up, but there used to be a provision for the police to apply to a magistrates court for a travel ban order. I suspect that was ended when they introduced SHPOs, as I believe they can include travel bans if that is considered necessary by the court (effectively, if the police request it...). As always, this high-profile stuff about travelling is more about the government of the day wanting to be seen to be Doing Something. Criminal Justice has always been an arms race in politics, and as Ian Hislop said on HIGNFY, "Easy target... no public sympathy... makes you look tough."
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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BenS
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+xJust so you are aware, I have looked into this for my DH and apparently it triggers as a concern flag for the MOSOVO team. So please don't do anything like that before you are well and truly off the SOR! Although I do also have to wonder, what would happen if you genuinely lost your passport (or, as I did when I was 19, manage to put it through the washing machine and ruin it!!) No worries, I wouldn't do that now, and anyway, if I did, I would be required by law to give them the new passport number (which would then stay on their system for 10 years, long after I'm off the SOR!). If you genuinely lose your passport and get a replacement, anyone on the SOR would be required to notify this to the PPU without being prompted to do so, and even if you're not planning on travelling. It's one of the basic requirements. No different from your passport expiring normally and getting a replacement - you have to report this on your own initiative. If you passport expires/is lost/damaged/stolen etc. and then you don't get a new one, I can't see anything saying you have to tell them that you simply don't have a passport anymore. But the minute you get a new one, you have to tell them, even if you're not going anywhere. Both the Passport office and DVLA have a marker on their system which alerts the PPU if there is any change - this was originally introduced to act as a deterrent after the PPUs discovered people changing their name, getting new documents and not notifying. As it's a legal requirement to notify within 3 days of any change to passport (or driving licence if no passport and DL used as identity document) this marker should be irrelevant to anyone (hopefully all on this forum) looking to play by the rules. What's the point in having to notify then, if they've already got it all worked out? What's the point of bureaucracy? Seriously?  Actually, I believe it may have started in the days when they could stop you travelling, but when the regulations about that changed, this bit didn't. BenS is really clued-up on this stuff, so I'm sure he'll know if that's how it happened. Thanks, AB2014, but I'm afraid I don't! What do you mean about "the days when they could stop you travelling"? Do you mean that in the past, RSOs were automatically barred from leaving the UK? There isn't much point in the whole bureaucratic process. If you leave the UK without notifying when you are required to notify, then they will just catch you when you come back. This has happened, there are news articles around, RSOs have been sentenced to a few months in prison for this. Technically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. It seems pointless having to notify travel when you are not banned from a certain country - especially for EU/EEA/Switzerland, when we at present have unconditional right of entry, so it all seems utterly pointless. More vengeance and punishment than any public good.
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.2K,
Visits: 7.7K
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+x+x+x+xJust so you are aware, I have looked into this for my DH and apparently it triggers as a concern flag for the MOSOVO team. So please don't do anything like that before you are well and truly off the SOR! Although I do also have to wonder, what would happen if you genuinely lost your passport (or, as I did when I was 19, manage to put it through the washing machine and ruin it!!) No worries, I wouldn't do that now, and anyway, if I did, I would be required by law to give them the new passport number (which would then stay on their system for 10 years, long after I'm off the SOR!). If you genuinely lose your passport and get a replacement, anyone on the SOR would be required to notify this to the PPU without being prompted to do so, and even if you're not planning on travelling. It's one of the basic requirements. No different from your passport expiring normally and getting a replacement - you have to report this on your own initiative. If you passport expires/is lost/damaged/stolen etc. and then you don't get a new one, I can't see anything saying you have to tell them that you simply don't have a passport anymore. But the minute you get a new one, you have to tell them, even if you're not going anywhere. Both the Passport office and DVLA have a marker on their system which alerts the PPU if there is any change - this was originally introduced to act as a deterrent after the PPUs discovered people changing their name, getting new documents and not notifying. As it's a legal requirement to notify within 3 days of any change to passport (or driving licence if no passport and DL used as identity document) this marker should be irrelevant to anyone (hopefully all on this forum) looking to play by the rules. What's the point in having to notify then, if they've already got it all worked out? What's the point of bureaucracy? Seriously?  Actually, I believe it may have started in the days when they could stop you travelling, but when the regulations about that changed, this bit didn't. BenS is really clued-up on this stuff, so I'm sure he'll know if that's how it happened.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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Harmless
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 110,
Visits: 391
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+x+x+xJust so you are aware, I have looked into this for my DH and apparently it triggers as a concern flag for the MOSOVO team. So please don't do anything like that before you are well and truly off the SOR! Although I do also have to wonder, what would happen if you genuinely lost your passport (or, as I did when I was 19, manage to put it through the washing machine and ruin it!!) No worries, I wouldn't do that now, and anyway, if I did, I would be required by law to give them the new passport number (which would then stay on their system for 10 years, long after I'm off the SOR!). If you genuinely lose your passport and get a replacement, anyone on the SOR would be required to notify this to the PPU without being prompted to do so, and even if you're not planning on travelling. It's one of the basic requirements. No different from your passport expiring normally and getting a replacement - you have to report this on your own initiative. If you passport expires/is lost/damaged/stolen etc. and then you don't get a new one, I can't see anything saying you have to tell them that you simply don't have a passport anymore. But the minute you get a new one, you have to tell them, even if you're not going anywhere. Both the Passport office and DVLA have a marker on their system which alerts the PPU if there is any change - this was originally introduced to act as a deterrent after the PPUs discovered people changing their name, getting new documents and not notifying. As it's a legal requirement to notify within 3 days of any change to passport (or driving licence if no passport and DL used as identity document) this marker should be irrelevant to anyone (hopefully all on this forum) looking to play by the rules. What's the point in having to notify then, if they've already got it all worked out?
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.2K,
Visits: 7.7K
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Another update on travel to the EU after Brexit. It depends on the UK doing the same for EU citizens, but I think they've already said they'll do it, so we just need to wait for them to do it, if they haven't done it already. Until ETIAS starts, it looks like no disclosure, just the €7 fee.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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Yankee
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Group: Forum Members
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I'd echo BenS comments.
How easy/painful the experience is at an EU border usually depends whether the immigration official has seen a section 36(2) alert before. If they have, they know its meant to be a discreet check so they follow any instructions on their screen - check destination on boarding pass or ask where travelling from, check if travelling alone or with people..
When they are not familiar with the process, there is usually a lengthy delay while they scroll through pages of instructions and spent what seems like an eternity checking every page of your passport.
In my experience (I travel extensively within the EU and outside the EU and have to notify), there is no consistency at all between countries and airports. I even find the experience can differ significantly at the same airport.
One thing I have noticed is that 1-2 years ago, it seemed to take longer for them to complete their less than discreet checks when I was entering the country and reasonably quick when getting a flight back to the UK.
More recently it has been the other way around. I suspect this might have something to do with the heightened terrorist threat levels previously where they were being a lot more thorough. Although why they would now take longer when you're leaving their country is beyond me..
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+xThey justify the SIS II advice as merely providing the information for other countries to make their own decisions (a bit like the government/DBS and employers). You know, take back control of their borders, etc. etc. As for Interpol green notices, you can ask Interpol what information they hold on you. They even provide an application form. I'm guessing they reserve the right not to reveal everything they have on you, for "security" reasons? Well, the prevention and detection of crime are standard exemptions in data protection law. Even so, the green notice itself is there to prevent crime, and telling you it exists won't change its ability to do that. Of course, someone could then decide to travel without notifying, but that would be picked up on the way out and on the way back, so the police would know what had been done and probably wouldn't be reluctant to prosecute. If you were going out with the intention of not coming back, you'd have a very short list of destination countries that are beyond the reach of extradition to the UK.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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BenS
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 301,
Visits: 2.9K
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+xThey justify the SIS II advice as merely providing the information for other countries to make their own decisions (a bit like the government/DBS and employers). You know, take back control of their borders, etc. etc. As for Interpol green notices, you can ask Interpol what information they hold on you. They even provide an application form. I'm guessing they reserve the right not to reveal everything they have on you, for "security" reasons?
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.2K,
Visits: 7.7K
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+x+x+xI am not sure (I would like to share experiences) that a SIS alert is automatically sent upon notifying a foreign travel. On similar forum someone said that it depends that the alert is sent depending on the sentence (i.e. custodial/suspended), its length, previous convictions etc. On a website (College of Policing) I have found the following : ".....Decisions to use Interpol notices (and SIS II alerts) are taken following national guidance and on a case by case basis according to risk...." By reading that it seems that even SIS alerts are issued on a case by case basis. My personal experience is limited. I traveled to Holland and Italy but my passport was not scanned and once to Ireland where my passport was scanned but no questions were asked. I would like to know your opinion and/or personal experiences. Earlier on this thread, someone posted that SIS II alerts are issued automatically as a matter of procedure, as an Article 36(2) alert. When I checked back through the document references, I found that the Article 36(2) alert is on the same basis as the Interpol Green Notice, which is that the person who is the subject of the notice is either involved in crime or travelling with the intention of committing crimes. Having said that, some forces seem to do that, while others issue notices for all travel notifications. According to EC information here, these alerts are for discreet or specific checks. I have heard of one check at French border control at St.Pancras being done at gunpoint, before the officer read the full text of the alert. Something to do with the alert codes suggesting the poor guy was missing and wanted, apparently. AB2014, while Article 36(2) restricts the issuance of a SISII alert to people involved in crime/suspected of intending to commit crime, the UK's College of Policing website goes beyond this and states that a SISII alert is issued as standard for all RSOs notifying foreign travel, i.e. regardless of risk, background, etc. So basically the UK police assume that all RSOs are actively involved in crime and intend to commit further crime, or just want to make our life more difficult for laughs. JGUK68: when you mention SISII alerts and "notifying foreign travel", this is only for countries using the SISII system, i.e. countries in the Schengen Area plus the UK and a few eastern European EU countries not in Schengen. As per my paragraph above, and posts by several other users here, no risk assessment is carried out when notifying travel to Europe - an alert is automatically issued for all RSOs who notify foreign travel. As we (currently) have unconditional freedom of movement in the EU + EEA + Switzerland, this alert is merely a formality and is not an entry ban to these countries - it will flash up on their screen, they may ask a few questions and then they will let us through. As for travel beyond Europe, there is no SISII alert (as non-European countries don't have access to it), but instead an Interpol green notice may be issued, but this is done at the discretion of your PPU and based on a risk assessment. Personally I've been outside Europe while notifying and have had no issue at all at the border, so my local police must not have issued a green notice on me. No point asking your PPU if they are going to issue a green notice for you - they won't give you a direct answer. Only way is to find out when you get there. As an aside, I find the SISII interrogation depends on the size of the airport. I recently flew to a tiny airport in Rennes in France, and the passport control people were staring at their screen in apparent confusion, and didn't seem to know what to do with me. Eventually they looked at my passport, spent a couple of minutes typing something and then let me through with no questions. A similar thing happened when I went to Treviso airport in Italy, a very small airport near Venice, used by the low-cost carriers who don't want to use the must larger Venice Marco Polo International. On the other hand, when I have flown into Frankfurt, CDG and Geneva, they seem to know exactly what they're dealing with - they either ask me some very quick routine questions about where I've come from, or they just let me straight through after a 5-second check. I am guessing the smaller airports are not used to seeing many travellers, so even fewer with a SISII alert, while the big airports see it on a daily basis. They justify the SIS II advice as merely providing the information for other countries to make their own decisions (a bit like the government/DBS and employers). You know, take back control of their borders, etc. etc. As for Interpol green notices, you can ask Interpol what information they hold on you. They even provide an application form.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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BenS
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 301,
Visits: 2.9K
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+x+xI am not sure (I would like to share experiences) that a SIS alert is automatically sent upon notifying a foreign travel. On similar forum someone said that it depends that the alert is sent depending on the sentence (i.e. custodial/suspended), its length, previous convictions etc. On a website (College of Policing) I have found the following : ".....Decisions to use Interpol notices (and SIS II alerts) are taken following national guidance and on a case by case basis according to risk...." By reading that it seems that even SIS alerts are issued on a case by case basis. My personal experience is limited. I traveled to Holland and Italy but my passport was not scanned and once to Ireland where my passport was scanned but no questions were asked. I would like to know your opinion and/or personal experiences. Earlier on this thread, someone posted that SIS II alerts are issued automatically as a matter of procedure, as an Article 36(2) alert. When I checked back through the document references, I found that the Article 36(2) alert is on the same basis as the Interpol Green Notice, which is that the person who is the subject of the notice is either involved in crime or travelling with the intention of committing crimes. Having said that, some forces seem to do that, while others issue notices for all travel notifications. According to EC information here, these alerts are for discreet or specific checks. I have heard of one check at French border control at St.Pancras being done at gunpoint, before the officer read the full text of the alert. Something to do with the alert codes suggesting the poor guy was missing and wanted, apparently. AB2014, while Article 36(2) restricts the issuance of a SISII alert to people involved in crime/suspected of intending to commit crime, the UK's College of Policing website goes beyond this and states that a SISII alert is issued as standard for all RSOs notifying foreign travel, i.e. regardless of risk, background, etc. So basically the UK police assume that all RSOs are actively involved in crime and intend to commit further crime, or just want to make our life more difficult for laughs. JGUK68: when you mention SISII alerts and "notifying foreign travel", this is only for countries using the SISII system, i.e. countries in the Schengen Area plus the UK and a few eastern European EU countries not in Schengen. As per my paragraph above, and posts by several other users here, no risk assessment is carried out when notifying travel to Europe - an alert is automatically issued for all RSOs who notify foreign travel. As we (currently) have unconditional freedom of movement in the EU + EEA + Switzerland, this alert is merely a formality and is not an entry ban to these countries - it will flash up on their screen, they may ask a few questions and then they will let us through. As for travel beyond Europe, there is no SISII alert (as non-European countries don't have access to it), but instead an Interpol green notice may be issued, but this is done at the discretion of your PPU and based on a risk assessment. Personally I've been outside Europe while notifying and have had no issue at all at the border, so my local police must not have issued a green notice on me. No point asking your PPU if they are going to issue a green notice for you - they won't give you a direct answer. Only way is to find out when you get there. As an aside, I find the SISII interrogation depends on the size of the airport. I recently flew to a tiny airport in Rennes in France, and the passport control people were staring at their screen in apparent confusion, and didn't seem to know what to do with me. Eventually they looked at my passport, spent a couple of minutes typing something and then let me through with no questions. A similar thing happened when I went to Treviso airport in Italy, a very small airport near Venice, used by the low-cost carriers who don't want to use the much larger Venice Marco Polo International. On the other hand, when I have flown into Frankfurt, CDG and Geneva, they seem to know exactly what they're dealing with - they either ask me some very quick routine questions about where I've come from, or they just let me straight through after a 5-second check. I am guessing the smaller airports are not used to seeing many travellers, so even fewer with a SISII alert, while the big airports see it on a daily basis.
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