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BenS
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Group: Forum Members
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+x
Hang on - why an Irish judge? Surely the crime was not notifying the British police?
If a person wanted for an offence is located in a foreign country, that foreign country can't just unilaterally send the person back to the country that wants them. Before someone is extradited, it has to go through the courts of the country in which the offender was detained. In other words, an Irish judge must approve the extradition before the person can be taken back to the UK.
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JASB
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Group: Awaiting Activation
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 1.6K
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+x+x+x+xTechnically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. I do wonder, however, about the non-illegal variation of the above plan. Declare a trip to Ireland, and go openly. Thence to a second port of call, unplanned in advance (make no special secret of even that, once it's done). Or planned in advance so completely in one's head as to render the illegality imponderable. I wonder whether, under such circumstances, the second port of call has been forewarned in any way. More generally, I tend to wonder what the regime is like in Ireland for someone simply wishing to stay or even visit (if I go hotel hopping around Ireland do I have to inform the cops there? I know there's an arrangement). I'm amazed Ireland hasn't been discussed more in these forums, seeing as it's like a chunk of Britain which is out from under the Crown and yet integrated with the economy etc, therefore just plain interesting. In 2008, I was banged up with a guy who had been extradited from the RoI. He'd just gone there without notifying. There were all sorts of ridiculous elements to the case, and the Irish judge wanted to throw it out. Anyway, the officer who came to arrest him told him that if he'd signed on their register, that would have been the end of it. Of course, that was 11 years ago, but don't forget that behind all the matey talk about the EU and old friendships, there are plenty of people there who are less fond of the UK government. I'm not giving an opinion on that, I'm just saying. Hang on - why an Irish judge? Surely the crime was not notifying the British police? Or was it not notifying the Irish police? If he was extradited then the crime was a British one so why an Irish judge? He might indeed have had to sign on in Ireland, but failure to do that would not result in extradition, right? Hi AB2014 is correct, try to remember the same thing being shown on the news in last year or so for wanted individuals of various offences. You could just remember julian assange extradition defence in the UK courts against going back to Sweden / USA FYI I have british/Irish citizenship and have checked that if I move to Ireland (republic) I would have to sign the register and they have a similar mindset as the UK towards sex offenders. In the end the simpler the plan the more likely hood of it working.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
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Harmless
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 110,
Visits: 391
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+x+x+x+x+xTechnically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. I do wonder, however, about the non-illegal variation of the above plan. Declare a trip to Ireland, and go openly. Thence to a second port of call, unplanned in advance (make no special secret of even that, once it's done). Or planned in advance so completely in one's head as to render the illegality imponderable. I wonder whether, under such circumstances, the second port of call has been forewarned in any way. More generally, I tend to wonder what the regime is like in Ireland for someone simply wishing to stay or even visit (if I go hotel hopping around Ireland do I have to inform the cops there? I know there's an arrangement). I'm amazed Ireland hasn't been discussed more in these forums, seeing as it's like a chunk of Britain which is out from under the Crown and yet integrated with the economy etc, therefore just plain interesting. In 2008, I was banged up with a guy who had been extradited from the RoI. He'd just gone there without notifying. There were all sorts of ridiculous elements to the case, and the Irish judge wanted to throw it out. Anyway, the officer who came to arrest him told him that if he'd signed on their register, that would have been the end of it. Of course, that was 11 years ago, but don't forget that behind all the matey talk about the EU and old friendships, there are plenty of people there who are less fond of the UK government. I'm not giving an opinion on that, I'm just saying. Hang on - why an Irish judge? Surely the crime was not notifying the British police? Or was it not notifying the Irish police? If he was extradited then the crime was a British one so why an Irish judge? He might indeed have had to sign on in Ireland, but failure to do that would not result in extradition, right? His original offence happened in England. He found it difficult to get work after that, so he moved to the RoI, but without notifying the police. At some point, they decided he was on the run, and started looking for him, maybe via Interpol. In any case, the Gardai found him in the phone book and checked his website, then came to arrest him. That was then referred to a judge in Dublin for an extradition hearing. Due to the, let's say, exaggerated evidence offered by the UK, the judge was minded to reject the extradition, but my pad-mate decided not to contest it, and found himself back in a magistrates court in the UK. So, the offence was failure to comply with his notification requirements in the UK. In the RoI, they weren't that bothered, and said that if he had signed on their register, that would have been the end of it, presumably as no judge would grant the extradition in those circumstances. Thing is, being a Britisher signing on to the Irish register must be a bit different. They don't have your records \ rapport with you and so they lack any narrative re risk assessment etc? In other words, how can they just hop on your case in the same way? Are there any advantages to their system over the British one?
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.1K,
Visits: 7K
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+x+x+x+x+x+xTechnically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. I do wonder, however, about the non-illegal variation of the above plan. Declare a trip to Ireland, and go openly. Thence to a second port of call, unplanned in advance (make no special secret of even that, once it's done). Or planned in advance so completely in one's head as to render the illegality imponderable. I wonder whether, under such circumstances, the second port of call has been forewarned in any way. More generally, I tend to wonder what the regime is like in Ireland for someone simply wishing to stay or even visit (if I go hotel hopping around Ireland do I have to inform the cops there? I know there's an arrangement). I'm amazed Ireland hasn't been discussed more in these forums, seeing as it's like a chunk of Britain which is out from under the Crown and yet integrated with the economy etc, therefore just plain interesting. In 2008, I was banged up with a guy who had been extradited from the RoI. He'd just gone there without notifying. There were all sorts of ridiculous elements to the case, and the Irish judge wanted to throw it out. Anyway, the officer who came to arrest him told him that if he'd signed on their register, that would have been the end of it. Of course, that was 11 years ago, but don't forget that behind all the matey talk about the EU and old friendships, there are plenty of people there who are less fond of the UK government. I'm not giving an opinion on that, I'm just saying. Hang on - why an Irish judge? Surely the crime was not notifying the British police? Or was it not notifying the Irish police? If he was extradited then the crime was a British one so why an Irish judge? He might indeed have had to sign on in Ireland, but failure to do that would not result in extradition, right? His original offence happened in England. He found it difficult to get work after that, so he moved to the RoI, but without notifying the police. At some point, they decided he was on the run, and started looking for him, maybe via Interpol. In any case, the Gardai found him in the phone book and checked his website, then came to arrest him. That was then referred to a judge in Dublin for an extradition hearing. Due to the, let's say, exaggerated evidence offered by the UK, the judge was minded to reject the extradition, but my pad-mate decided not to contest it, and found himself back in a magistrates court in the UK. So, the offence was failure to comply with his notification requirements in the UK. In the RoI, they weren't that bothered, and said that if he had signed on their register, that would have been the end of it, presumably as no judge would grant the extradition in those circumstances. Thing is, being a Britisher signing on to the Irish register must be a bit different. They don't have your records \ rapport with you and so they lack any narrative re risk assessment etc? In other words, how can they just hop on your case in the same way? Are there any advantages to their system over the British one? I can only go by what my pad-mate told me, which was that they saw it as a formality. He said that the Garda told him "If you'd just signed on it, we wouldn't have bothered you. Everyone deserves a second chance." Strange as that sounds, of course. If you re-offended, though, they probably took a different view of it, and I can't guarantee their attitude is the same 11 years later.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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RMUK
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 18,
Visits: 117
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To bring this topic back to the original subject.. Since the UK will most definitely leave the EU on the 31st Jan, does anyone have any information if we will still be subject to the shenghen notification system or if it will revert to Interpol (if applicable)?
Since freedom of movement will end... If we are still subject to the shenghen notification system SIS2 alerts, do we see any chance of refusal within EU countries?
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Harmless
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 110,
Visits: 391
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+xTo bring this topic back to the original subject.. Since the UK will most definitely leave the EU on the 31st Jan, does anyone have any information if we will still be subject to the shenghen notification system or if it will revert to Interpol (if applicable)? Since freedom of movement will end... If we are still subject to the shenghen notification system SIS2 alerts, do we see any chance of refusal within EU countries? We won't know until the PM reaches a settlement, but as he now seems to be holding the cards, we can be fairly certain he'll regard frictionlessness (for the British) in general as prize.
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Yankee
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 234,
Visits: 994
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+xTo bring this topic back to the original subject.. Since the UK will most definitely leave the EU on the 31st Jan, does anyone have any information if we will still be subject to the shenghen notification system or if it will revert to Interpol (if applicable)? Since freedom of movement will end... If we are still subject to the shenghen notification system SIS2 alerts, do we see any chance of refusal within EU countries? The withdrawal agreement seems to imply that there will be access to SISII for 3 months after the end of the transition period i.e end March 2021. Beyond that will depend upon whatever deal is negotiated during 2020. "Council Decision 2007/533/JHA2 shall apply in respect of the exchange of supplementary information where there was a hit before the end of the transition period on an alert issued in the Schengen Information System, provided its provisions apply to the United Kingdom on the last day of the transition period. By way of derogation from Article 8 of this Agreement,the United Kingdom shall be entitled to use, for no longer than 3 months after the end of the transition period..."
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Harmless
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 110,
Visits: 391
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xTechnically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. I do wonder, however, about the non-illegal variation of the above plan. Declare a trip to Ireland, and go openly. Thence to a second port of call, unplanned in advance (make no special secret of even that, once it's done). Or planned in advance so completely in one's head as to render the illegality imponderable. I wonder whether, under such circumstances, the second port of call has been forewarned in any way. More generally, I tend to wonder what the regime is like in Ireland for someone simply wishing to stay or even visit (if I go hotel hopping around Ireland do I have to inform the cops there? I know there's an arrangement). I'm amazed Ireland hasn't been discussed more in these forums, seeing as it's like a chunk of Britain which is out from under the Crown and yet integrated with the economy etc, therefore just plain interesting. In 2008, I was banged up with a guy who had been extradited from the RoI. He'd just gone there without notifying. There were all sorts of ridiculous elements to the case, and the Irish judge wanted to throw it out. Anyway, the officer who came to arrest him told him that if he'd signed on their register, that would have been the end of it. Of course, that was 11 years ago, but don't forget that behind all the matey talk about the EU and old friendships, there are plenty of people there who are less fond of the UK government. I'm not giving an opinion on that, I'm just saying. Hang on - why an Irish judge? Surely the crime was not notifying the British police? Or was it not notifying the Irish police? If he was extradited then the crime was a British one so why an Irish judge? He might indeed have had to sign on in Ireland, but failure to do that would not result in extradition, right? His original offence happened in England. He found it difficult to get work after that, so he moved to the RoI, but without notifying the police. At some point, they decided he was on the run, and started looking for him, maybe via Interpol. In any case, the Gardai found him in the phone book and checked his website, then came to arrest him. That was then referred to a judge in Dublin for an extradition hearing. Due to the, let's say, exaggerated evidence offered by the UK, the judge was minded to reject the extradition, but my pad-mate decided not to contest it, and found himself back in a magistrates court in the UK. So, the offence was failure to comply with his notification requirements in the UK. In the RoI, they weren't that bothered, and said that if he had signed on their register, that would have been the end of it, presumably as no judge would grant the extradition in those circumstances. Thing is, being a Britisher signing on to the Irish register must be a bit different. They don't have your records \ rapport with you and so they lack any narrative re risk assessment etc? In other words, how can they just hop on your case in the same way? Are there any advantages to their system over the British one? I can only go by what my pad-mate told me, which was that they saw it as a formality. He said that the Garda told him "If you'd just signed on it, we wouldn't have bothered you. Everyone deserves a second chance." Strange as that sounds, of course. If you re-offended, though, they probably took a different view of it, and I can't guarantee their attitude is the same 11 years later. I'm wondering if the regime is the same for tourists as it is for Irish folk.
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RMUK
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 18,
Visits: 117
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+x+xTo bring this topic back to the original subject.. Since the UK will most definitely leave the EU on the 31st Jan, does anyone have any information if we will still be subject to the shenghen notification system or if it will revert to Interpol (if applicable)? Since freedom of movement will end... If we are still subject to the shenghen notification system SIS2 alerts, do we see any chance of refusal within EU countries? The withdrawal agreement seems to imply that there will be access to SISII for 3 months after the end of the transition period i.e end March 2021. Beyond that will depend upon whatever deal is negotiated during 2020. "Council Decision 2007/533/JHA2 shall apply in respect of the exchange of supplementary information where there was a hit before the end of the transition period on an alert issued in the Schengen Information System, provided its provisions apply to the United Kingdom on the last day of the transition period. By way of derogation from Article 8 of this Agreement,the United Kingdom shall be entitled to use, for no longer than 3 months after the end of the transition period..." OK so does that mean that since they have access to the system, but freedom of movement no longer applies, that they can then refuse entry? 🙄
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BenS
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 302,
Visits: 2.9K
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+xOK so does that mean that since they have access to the system, but freedom of movement no longer applies, that they can then refuse entry? 🙄 Assuming the Withdrawal Agreement is passed and ratified by the UK and the EU27, free movement between the UK and the EU will continue post-Brexit until the end of the implementation period, which will most likely be 31 December 2020. This means that EU countries' immigration authorities must treat UK citizens as EU citizens until the end of 2020. Until then, the current virtually unconditional right to enter other EU countries will remain for UK citizens visiting the EU (and EU citizens visiting the UK). In other words, you cannot be refused entry simply due to a criminal conviction - they have to prove you are a clear and present threat based on your current conduct - the mere existence of a criminal conviction is not grounds for refusing an EU citizen entry to a foreign EU country. https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/2019/08/19/media-factsheet-eu-citizens-and-freedom-of-movement/In short: EU countries cannot refuse UK citizens entry for the rest of 2020. The unconditional right of UK citizens to live and work in any country in the EU, EEA or Switzerland is also retained until the end of 2020.
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