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What do you have to do to become as an ex-offender - risk your life and still be haunted by your...


What do you have to do to become as an ex-offender - risk your life...

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JASB
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JASB - 17 Dec 19 3:23 PM
Hi
This is more to generate another discussion on rehabilitation and what do we have to do to be recognized as an ex-offender.

We have all read about the terrible attack on London bridge and how praise was given to one person who risked his life in saving others.

Personally I was amazed as it is the first time I have seen the wording ex-offender used by the various TV outlets and newspapers. Was it the fact he was risking his life or just the media was forced into saying it because of his actions?

However it didn't take long for the media to use his past offence against him.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/30/london-bridge-attack-prisoner-confronted-terrorist-not-hero/

Therefore we have to ask, if risking your life is not enough what will demonstrate to society / media / government that there is goodness in an ex-offender
I wait to see if he will get a medal for risking his life as many others found in this situation and acting in the same manner have done.

Maybe Unlock can take up the question.

Good luck for today, be compassionate to others no matter their offence, and remember you are an ex-offender, a human being and have a life to live not only for yourself. but also those who love you.

Hi all,
For those that do not watch Prime Minister's questions today I would like to share the welcome news of a politician - Karl Turner -  raising a question to the PM about Steven and asking the PM to praise for his action.

Mr turner was honest in mentioning steven's past but asked the PM to 
congratulate and pay tribute for his act which saved lives
 , which did get a few - but muffled 
here here
from other MP's.

The PM did congratulate Steven and also others but said it is not up to the government to comment but hoped others would reward him appropriately.

Maybe; though unfortunately I do doubt it, these comments may be thought of whenever MP's discuss that for the majority ex-offenders rehabilitation is a statement of fact and society should be encouraged to believe this truth. 



Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
punter99
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JASB - 31 Dec 19 1:48 PM
JASB - 18 Dec 19 3:53 PM
Thorswrath - 17 Dec 19 11:50 PM
I doubt very much he will be offered a medal. His actions 'on the day' were commendable but i think the body that awards medals for bravery or outstanding service would have to consider the impact this might have on his victims family, understandably they don't care that he might have saved other lives because that doesn't bring back the life they lost, i think it would be very difficult to see it another way if you were the family of his victim.

I would argue, had his crime been something like drug dealing,robbery or fraud, it would be easier for the public and the press to accept his actions as some kind of meaningful deposit in the moral bank. I think the thing to take away from this is that even people who have committed heinous crimes can be capable of doing something positive but it's also the case that he was in an extremely unique situation, almost surreal.

Hi many thanks for your thoughts as they were the sort of thoughts I was hoping would bring into the discussion.

However, there were other brave individuals that day who I think in most occurrences of this type would be given some form of bravery award.
The question is therefore: that given the high government and media interest, will those individuals NOT get any award because of the offending history of one? Consequently what outrage would follow if they did and he did  V him not getting one and the others did?

Hi
Just an update.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/03/heroes-helped-tackle-killer-london-bridge-terrorist-line-national/

It is interesting how they detail he would not be allowed to go into the palace to receive the award so considering another type of award.
It makes you think/ask the question whether they would prefer it to be posthumous as decisions would of been easier for them?
Disgusting attitude that just creates further discrimination of proven ex-offenders. 


In the Sun, around the same time, there was another article, saying that 72% of those applying to come off the SOR had their applications approved. The Sun was 'concerned' that the police were being too soft on these proven ex offenders. As we already know, for some types of offenders, there can never be forgiveness, even when the police have accepted  they are no longer a risk. I think that both stories go to show that ex offenders will always be under suspicion, no matter what they do.

JASB
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JASB - 18 Dec 19 3:53 PM
Thorswrath - 17 Dec 19 11:50 PM
I doubt very much he will be offered a medal. His actions 'on the day' were commendable but i think the body that awards medals for bravery or outstanding service would have to consider the impact this might have on his victims family, understandably they don't care that he might have saved other lives because that doesn't bring back the life they lost, i think it would be very difficult to see it another way if you were the family of his victim.

I would argue, had his crime been something like drug dealing,robbery or fraud, it would be easier for the public and the press to accept his actions as some kind of meaningful deposit in the moral bank. I think the thing to take away from this is that even people who have committed heinous crimes can be capable of doing something positive but it's also the case that he was in an extremely unique situation, almost surreal.

Hi many thanks for your thoughts as they were the sort of thoughts I was hoping would bring into the discussion.

However, there were other brave individuals that day who I think in most occurrences of this type would be given some form of bravery award.
The question is therefore: that given the high government and media interest, will those individuals NOT get any award because of the offending history of one? Consequently what outrage would follow if they did and he did  V him not getting one and the others did?

Hi
Just an update.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/03/heroes-helped-tackle-killer-london-bridge-terrorist-line-national/

It is interesting how they detail he would not be allowed to go into the palace to receive the award so considering another type of award.
It makes you think/ask the question whether they would prefer it to be posthumous as decisions would of been easier for them?
Disgusting attitude that just creates further discrimination of proven ex-offenders. 



Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
AB2014
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punter99 - 19 Dec 19 11:10 AM
Rehabilitation has 2 levels. First, has the offender actually changed as a person, then second, is the public willing to forgive that person. It seems to me this question is about the second part. I would say that the public, as a whole, can't really forgive, only individuals can. Giving someone a medal is symbolic of wider public forgiveness, but there will always be some members of the public who don't want to forgive offenders, under any circumstances. It suits them to always have a scapegoat somewhere that they can blame, because they then they don't have to examine their own faults and failings. That's also reflected in the widespread belief in a hierarchy of offending.
Sadly, a lot of these individuals have found a public voice now, via social media, that they didn't have before. Tabloid editors are slightly different. They only care about circulation figures and offenders are just useful tools they can use to sell papers. But, the actions of these tabloids helps to feed the online haters. It gives them another reason to be angry about something. On the positive side though, their attention spans are pretty short. They hate an offender one day, but 24 hours later, they have forgotten that offender and moved on to hating someone else.   
https://www.wellesley.edu/albright/about/blog/3441-public-forgiveness-unforgiving-public

You certainly got the public attitude part right, as we learned yesterday. Some people just like to be moral arbiters, and to tell others what they should think and feel. They love that sense of moral superiority, which may explain why some of them work for certain media outlets. Allegedly, a survey once suggested that the majority of readers of a certain newspaper would rather live in a country where criminals are caught and punished than in a country where there is no crime. Interpret that any way you like....

=========================================================
Grrr! Aaargh!

punter99
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Rehabilitation has 2 levels. First, has the offender actually changed as a person, then second, is the public willing to forgive that person. It seems to me this question is about the second part. I would say that the public, as a whole, can't really forgive, only individuals can. Giving someone a medal is symbolic of wider public forgiveness, but there will always be some members of the public who don't want to forgive offenders, under any circumstances. It suits them to always have a scapegoat somewhere that they can blame, because they then they don't have to examine their own faults and failings. That's also reflected in the widespread belief in a hierarchy of offending.
Sadly, a lot of these individuals have found a public voice now, via social media, that they didn't have before. Tabloid editors are slightly different. They only care about circulation figures and offenders are just useful tools they can use to sell papers. But, the actions of these tabloids helps to feed the online haters. It gives them another reason to be angry about something. On the positive side though, their attention spans are pretty short. They hate an offender one day, but 24 hours later, they have forgotten that offender and moved on to hating someone else.   
https://www.wellesley.edu/albright/about/blog/3441-public-forgiveness-unforgiving-public

JASB
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AB2014 - 18 Dec 19 8:50 AM
Thorswrath - 17 Dec 19 11:50 PM
I doubt very much he will be offered a medal. His actions 'on the day' were commendable but i think the body that awards medals for bravery or outstanding service would have to consider the impact this might have on his victims family, understandably they don't care that he might have saved other lives because that doesn't bring back the life they lost, i think it would be very difficult to see it another way if you were the family of his victim.

I would argue, had his crime been something like drug dealing,robbery or fraud, it would be easier for the public and the press to accept his actions as some kind of meaningful deposit in the moral bank. I think the thing to take away from this is that even people who have committed heinous crimes can be capable of doing something positive but it's also the case that he was in an extremely unique situation, almost surreal.

I see your point, but you can over-analyse this. After all, some drug dealers probably cause loss of life, even within their own family in certain cases. Drink-drivers and dangerous drivers aren't seen as monsters, but some of them have killed people. How deep do you want to go into this? The bottom line is that there are plenty of crimes that might be seen as "not so bad in the overall scheme of things" at first sight, but then look worse when you shine a light on them. Of course, people don't automatically think what the media tell them to think, or agree with trolls online, do they...? Sad

Hi AB, as ever I agree with a lot of your thoughts.
Society does take a simplistic and personal experience view of offences. In this modern day were moral expectations are increasing (rightly so) but with an acceptance that a lack of clarification/confusion on the offence will/should gain a conviction, most people now report to have had some type of sexual offence undertaken against them. Therefore their emotions are more easily persuaded to be aggressive against a sex offender no matter the actual details of the offence. 

With Drug dealing/taking: I would suggest the majority of views are taken from the characters portrayed on TV, films and possibly games. they can be seen as respectable individuals.  They do not see the violence and predatory grooming behind these offences. The use of adults AND children by them; rarely would I expect a child to just walk up to a dealer and say 'can I work for you or can I have a free sample?' Why are these offenders treated in a manner different to a sex offender who is recognized as not using violence and predatory grooming in their offence.

To me the whole concept of the SOR needs to be reviewed. That is a different discussion and I do not wish to divert this topic to far off line.



Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
JASB
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Thorswrath - 17 Dec 19 11:50 PM
I doubt very much he will be offered a medal. His actions 'on the day' were commendable but i think the body that awards medals for bravery or outstanding service would have to consider the impact this might have on his victims family, understandably they don't care that he might have saved other lives because that doesn't bring back the life they lost, i think it would be very difficult to see it another way if you were the family of his victim.

I would argue, had his crime been something like drug dealing,robbery or fraud, it would be easier for the public and the press to accept his actions as some kind of meaningful deposit in the moral bank. I think the thing to take away from this is that even people who have committed heinous crimes can be capable of doing something positive but it's also the case that he was in an extremely unique situation, almost surreal.

Hi many thanks for your thoughts as they were the sort of thoughts I was hoping would bring into the discussion.

However, there were other brave individuals that day who I think in most occurrences of this type would be given some form of bravery award.
The question is therefore: that given the high government and media interest, will those individuals NOT get any award because of the offending history of one? Consequently what outrage would follow if they did and he did  V him not getting one and the others did?

Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
JASB
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khafka - 17 Dec 19 5:26 PM
I think it can depend a lot on the crime too and whether people are more forgiving or not.

Most of the hysterical masses will just see an offender regardless if you left prison 2 weeks ago or 40 years ago I feel they'd also try and make up some wafty justification as to why you stepped in to help at a moment like this; "Oh they're just doing it to try and hide that thing they did. We still remember folks though! Don't applaud this monster!"

I'm not really sure how to change the public perception as you'll always have knee jerk reactions to all things so you'll never eradicate it.

I think the quickest and easiest fix in general would be to ban the media from courtrooms, or at least ban them from publishing names and addresses of people accused/convicted. They can simply say "a 31 year old man from city-x was convicted today for murder" or whatever.

It's the media that whips people up into this frenzy - not the court/justice system.



Hi first thanks for your reply.

I'm not sure if they would ban the media from all the proceedings however, and I have mentioned this in other articles, I do think they should be banned / stopped reporting identifying details from further proceedings after conviction.

Example, you are applying to have restrictions/conditions removed. The media will report this, especially if approved and not as a positive action showing you have proven rehabilitation. The consequences will be more than regurgitating possibly unproven and exaggerated information, but new personal details such as name change and location. 

But heck you only get isolated from society again.

Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
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Thorswrath - 17 Dec 19 11:50 PM
I doubt very much he will be offered a medal. His actions 'on the day' were commendable but i think the body that awards medals for bravery or outstanding service would have to consider the impact this might have on his victims family, understandably they don't care that he might have saved other lives because that doesn't bring back the life they lost, i think it would be very difficult to see it another way if you were the family of his victim.

I would argue, had his crime been something like drug dealing,robbery or fraud, it would be easier for the public and the press to accept his actions as some kind of meaningful deposit in the moral bank. I think the thing to take away from this is that even people who have committed heinous crimes can be capable of doing something positive but it's also the case that he was in an extremely unique situation, almost surreal.

I see your point, but you can over-analyse this. After all, some drug dealers probably cause loss of life, even within their own family in certain cases. Drink-drivers and dangerous drivers aren't seen as monsters, but some of them have killed people. How deep do you want to go into this? The bottom line is that there are plenty of crimes that might be seen as "not so bad in the overall scheme of things" at first sight, but then look worse when you shine a light on them. Of course, people don't automatically think what the media tell them to think, or agree with trolls online, do they...? Sad

=========================================================
Grrr! Aaargh!

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I doubt very much he will be offered a medal. His actions 'on the day' were commendable but i think the body that awards medals for bravery or outstanding service would have to consider the impact this might have on his victims family, understandably they don't care that he might have saved other lives because that doesn't bring back the life they lost, i think it would be very difficult to see it another way if you were the family of his victim.

I would argue, had his crime been something like drug dealing,robbery or fraud, it would be easier for the public and the press to accept his actions as some kind of meaningful deposit in the moral bank. I think the thing to take away from this is that even people who have committed heinous crimes can be capable of doing something positive but it's also the case that he was in an extremely unique situation, almost surreal.

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My post wasn't quite on topic, so I've deleted it. As you were!


=====
Fighting or Accepting - its difficult to know which is right and when.
Edited
9 Months Ago by Mr W
khafka
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I think it can depend a lot on the crime too and whether people are more forgiving or not.

Most of the hysterical masses will just see an offender regardless if you left prison 2 weeks ago or 40 years ago I feel they'd also try and make up some wafty justification as to why you stepped in to help at a moment like this; "Oh they're just doing it to try and hide that thing they did. We still remember folks though! Don't applaud this monster!"

I'm not really sure how to change the public perception as you'll always have knee jerk reactions to all things so you'll never eradicate it.

I think the quickest and easiest fix in general would be to ban the media from courtrooms, or at least ban them from publishing names and addresses of people accused/convicted. They can simply say "a 31 year old man from city-x was convicted today for murder" or whatever.

It's the media that whips people up into this frenzy - not the court/justice system.



AB2014
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JASB - 17 Dec 19 3:23 PM
Hi
This is more to generate another discussion on rehabilitation and what do we have to do to be recognized as an ex-offender.

We have all read about the terrible attack on London bridge and how praise was given to one person who risked his life in saving others.

Personally I was amazed as it is the first time I have seen the wording ex-offender used by the various TV outlets and newspapers. Was it the fact he was risking his life or just the media was forced into saying it because of his actions?

However it didn't take long for the media to use his past offence against him.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/30/london-bridge-attack-prisoner-confronted-terrorist-not-hero/

Therefore we have to ask, if risking your life is not enough what will demonstrate to society / media / government that there is goodness in an ex-offender
I wait to see if he will get a medal for risking his life as many others found in this situation and acting in the same manner have done.

Maybe Unlock can take up the question.

Good luck for today, be compassionate to others no matter their offence, and remember you are an ex-offender, a human being and have a life to live not only for yourself. but also those who love you.

It will be very interesting to see whether he gets a medal, as there is a procedure for checking nominees to make sure they don't bring the system into disrepute. After all, we wouldn't want someone getting an honour and then committing a crime afterwards. Thankfully, at least our politicians are honest, decent people and would never commit an offence, so we can rely on them....

=========================================================
Grrr! Aaargh!

JASB
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Hi
This is more to generate another discussion on rehabilitation and what do we have to do to be recognized as an ex-offender.

We have all read about the terrible attack on London bridge and how praise was given to one person who risked his life in saving others.

Personally I was amazed as it is the first time I have seen the wording ex-offender used by the various TV outlets and newspapers. Was it the fact he was risking his life or just the media was forced into saying it because of his actions?

However it didn't take long for the media to use his past offence against him.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/30/london-bridge-attack-prisoner-confronted-terrorist-not-hero/

Therefore we have to ask, if risking your life is not enough what will demonstrate to society / media / government that there is goodness in an ex-offender
I wait to see if he will get a medal for risking his life as many others found in this situation and acting in the same manner have done.

Maybe Unlock can take up the question.

Good luck for today, be compassionate to others no matter their offence, and remember you are an ex-offender, a human being and have a life to live not only for yourself. but also those who love you.


Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
GO


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