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The PPU


The PPU

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xDanx
xDanx
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So I have been debating for a while now to contact my PPU, request information from him, ask him what risk he believes I pose and to discuss some of the things I am concerned about such as the conditions on my orders. But I have been hesitant to do so and I can not explain why. Am I scared? Very much so yes. Why? Because of the level of control he has over my life? The fact he could potentially make up anything he wants in order to make my life worse if he believes I am not following his "orders"? What ever reason it may be, either way it triggers my anxiety which makes it extremely difficult to focus and ask the right questions and to keep my composure.

I have been writing down many things I want to question and go through with him but I am always questioning if I should or not.
Should I question him about the conditions on my orders making note to the case law that ruled the conditions must be proportionate? I have in the past but I always get the same answers (he does not believe anything needs to change)
Should I challenge his previous statements? "If its not in your order then there is no restriction"
Should I include complaints on the basis that I have not seen a single shred of evidence and give quotes from the code of practice?
Should I request more information such as who drafted my SHPO and when exactly it was drafted?

Many things are going around in my head which is making it difficult to concentrate on my uni work, so any advice on this would be massively appreciated.




khafka
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I feel extremely fortunate my PPU is fairly approachable. Aside from the latest issue involving Facebook which I talked about on another post which to his credit isn't his fault. He didn't write the law!

What I would say is write down your questions and sit with them for a few days. Go back to the occasionally and make sure they make sense and are factual.

I'd then be sure to send him an email. Any time I have something I really want to double check I email him and he replies with an "OFFICIAL" stamp in the header and in the email. Keep any replies in it's own folder in your email. This gives you a chain of culpability should anything untoward happen and makes it easy to access should you need to pull it. To go one step further I usually put a little note in my planner/calendar on my PC (which is linked to my GMail) with the date and time I sent an email with a quick bit in the header about what it is about. I then do one for the reply and I head them as the following:

"[#SENT] - Notifying of new number"
"[#REPLY] - Notifying of new number"

Then I can just search "#REPLY number" and it'll pull up the information straight away and I can track the email down should I need it. The '#' are important as they break up the email. If I just searched for "reply" in Gmail it'd probably bring up 500 results. #REPLY are never shown together in emails so it makes it unique.

When you come to sending your email try and leave your emotions out of it. Try and avoid saying things like "I feel this is not correct". Try and make is succinct and formal. So something like "Can you please clarify XYZ?". That way you get you should get your answer in clear language, they can't read between any lines in the dialog and should anything come of it if anything goes awry it paints you in a much better light.



xDanx
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khafka - 16 Jul 20 12:25 AM
I feel extremely fortunate my PPU is fairly approachable. Aside from the latest issue involving Facebook which I talked about on another post which to his credit isn't his fault. He didn't write the law!

What I would say is write down your questions and sit with them for a few days. Go back to the occasionally and make sure they make sense and are factual.

I'd then be sure to send him an email. Any time I have something I really want to double check I email him and he replies with an "OFFICIAL" stamp in the header and in the email. Keep any replies in it's own folder in your email. This gives you a chain of culpability should anything untoward happen and makes it easy to access should you need to pull it. To go one step further I usually put a little note in my planner/calendar on my PC (which is linked to my GMail) with the date and time I sent an email with a quick bit in the header about what it is about. I then do one for the reply and I head them as the following:

"[#SENT] - Notifying of new number"
"[#REPLY] - Notifying of new number"

Then I can just search "#REPLY number" and it'll pull up the information straight away and I can track the email down should I need it. The '#' are important as they break up the email. If I just searched for "reply" in Gmail it'd probably bring up 500 results. #REPLY are never shown together in emails so it makes it unique.

When you come to sending your email try and leave your emotions out of it. Try and avoid saying things like "I feel this is not correct". Try and make is succinct and formal. So something like "Can you please clarify XYZ?". That way you get you should get your answer in clear language, they can't read between any lines in the dialog and should anything come of it if anything goes awry it paints you in a much better light.



Email probably would be the better idea to discuss things with him rather than in person or phone, problem is my requests to get his email have gone unanswered. And there is the possibility I could be getting another new PPU which I have not met yet.
Are the things I listed worthy of forwarding his way to discuss? I want to know ultimately why he has interpreted my conditions the way he has and what guidance he uses to decide his interpretations. Should I mention the high court ruling about disproportionate conditions and go through them in detail with him? why I think they are disproportionate? Why my risk is med, high if there is no evidence of contact offences?





JASB
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Hi
Many others have offered sound advice for you to review and consider what is best suited to your overall "Strategy"; and really that depends on the conditions and there duration.

Repeating what others have suggested and do promote in all my posts:
  1. Refine your organizational skills so you find documents easily;
  2. Use a simple filing system e.g. by subject with sub levels by contact name e.g. SOPO\PPU or SOPO\Prob-Officer;
  3. When writing be polite, confident and non emotional. Look at your use of grammar, the words you use ensuring you use words/phrases in a manner you understand and importantly can discuss. Plan the content in a self explanatory and logical manner as this will make it easier for the PPU to read and so reply;
  4. Use a numbered paragraph structure with heading so replies, to multi subject documents, will be referenced accordingly;
  5. If you refer to facts, guidance or case law for example read them first. Do not rely on taking a link from a post as the person may have inserted the wrong link or misunderstood the reference. Again if you use something ensure you can discuss it or else you will feel more vulnerable in future when holding a discussion on anything. 
  6. Finally spell check, review, have a cup of tea and review again, and if possible have someone else (trusted) to read it before sending any document.
  7. Put a note in your diary of sending with a reminder note of a couple of weeks in case no reply;
  8. If no reply, politely ref to your document(s) you have not heard from and ask if the reason you have not heard back is because something is wrong (there side).
One other point is that often you may have a discussion verbally in response or a question was raised and answered that way so you must record it. If necessary send them a document confirming your understanding. This is very important especially if discussing deemed important. 

To clarify when I say document I simple use that word in case you use email, physical paper etc.
Good luck and just be confident in yourself when you are interfacing with anyone.

Anything else just ask.




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punter99
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xDanx - 16 Jul 20 1:50 AM
khafka - 16 Jul 20 12:25 AM
I feel extremely fortunate my PPU is fairly approachable. Aside from the latest issue involving Facebook which I talked about on another post which to his credit isn't his fault. He didn't write the law!

What I would say is write down your questions and sit with them for a few days. Go back to the occasionally and make sure they make sense and are factual.

I'd then be sure to send him an email. Any time I have something I really want to double check I email him and he replies with an "OFFICIAL" stamp in the header and in the email. Keep any replies in it's own folder in your email. This gives you a chain of culpability should anything untoward happen and makes it easy to access should you need to pull it. To go one step further I usually put a little note in my planner/calendar on my PC (which is linked to my GMail) with the date and time I sent an email with a quick bit in the header about what it is about. I then do one for the reply and I head them as the following:

"[#SENT] - Notifying of new number"
"[#REPLY] - Notifying of new number"

Then I can just search "#REPLY number" and it'll pull up the information straight away and I can track the email down should I need it. The '#' are important as they break up the email. If I just searched for "reply" in Gmail it'd probably bring up 500 results. #REPLY are never shown together in emails so it makes it unique.

When you come to sending your email try and leave your emotions out of it. Try and avoid saying things like "I feel this is not correct". Try and make is succinct and formal. So something like "Can you please clarify XYZ?". That way you get you should get your answer in clear language, they can't read between any lines in the dialog and should anything come of it if anything goes awry it paints you in a much better light.



Email probably would be the better idea to discuss things with him rather than in person or phone, problem is my requests to get his email have gone unanswered. And there is the possibility I could be getting another new PPU which I have not met yet.
Are the things I listed worthy of forwarding his way to discuss? I want to know ultimately why he has interpreted my conditions the way he has and what guidance he uses to decide his interpretations. Should I mention the high court ruling about disproportionate conditions and go through them in detail with him? why I think they are disproportionate? Why my risk is med, high if there is no evidence of contact offences?





You should have a risk management plan. That sets out what your risks are and how the PPU and/or probation are going to address those risks. Now you may not have been told about this plan, but it should exist somewhere on the police records, so if I were you I would start by asking to see that plan. Once you know what is in it, you have something to go on. Don't mention court rulings or make any complaints at this stage. You need to know what information the police are working with, when they are assessing you.

Should the PPU tell you that no risk management plan exists, then tell them you are going to do a Subject Access Request under the data protection act, to find out what information they hold about you. I know from experience that organisations really don't like receiving these requests, because it means a lot of extra work for them, so it might persuade the PPU to be more forthcoming. But keep this option in reserve for now, because you can always use it later, if required.

I realise, from the many other posts on here, that the police are not easy to deal with. They take ages to respond and sometimes they don't reply to emails or phonecalls, at all, so you have to be persistent. If all esle fails, you can write to the Chief Constable, asking why the officers are not replying, but leave that for later. Try to keep your emails factual and to the point, like Khafka says, keep your opinions and emotion out of it.

If you don't have an email for them or if you send an email and you get no reply, write the questions out on paper and give it the PPU the next time they visit you.

I'm lucky, because my PPU gave me his email, on the first day I met him and he always replies within a couple of days. I know that others are not so fortunate.

Yankee
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xDanx - 16 Jul 20 1:50 AM
khafka - 16 Jul 20 12:25 AM
I feel extremely fortunate my PPU is fairly approachable. Aside from the latest issue involving Facebook which I talked about on another post which to his credit isn't his fault. He didn't write the law!

What I would say is write down your questions and sit with them for a few days. Go back to the occasionally and make sure they make sense and are factual.

I'd then be sure to send him an email. Any time I have something I really want to double check I email him and he replies with an "OFFICIAL" stamp in the header and in the email. Keep any replies in it's own folder in your email. This gives you a chain of culpability should anything untoward happen and makes it easy to access should you need to pull it. To go one step further I usually put a little note in my planner/calendar on my PC (which is linked to my GMail) with the date and time I sent an email with a quick bit in the header about what it is about. I then do one for the reply and I head them as the following:

"[#SENT] - Notifying of new number"
"[#REPLY] - Notifying of new number"

Then I can just search "#REPLY number" and it'll pull up the information straight away and I can track the email down should I need it. The '#' are important as they break up the email. If I just searched for "reply" in Gmail it'd probably bring up 500 results. #REPLY are never shown together in emails so it makes it unique.

When you come to sending your email try and leave your emotions out of it. Try and avoid saying things like "I feel this is not correct". Try and make is succinct and formal. So something like "Can you please clarify XYZ?". That way you get you should get your answer in clear language, they can't read between any lines in the dialog and should anything come of it if anything goes awry it paints you in a much better light.



Email probably would be the better idea to discuss things with him rather than in person or phone, problem is my requests to get his email have gone unanswered. And there is the possibility I could be getting another new PPU which I have not met yet.
Are the things I listed worthy of forwarding his way to discuss? I want to know ultimately why he has interpreted my conditions the way he has and what guidance he uses to decide his interpretations. Should I mention the high court ruling about disproportionate conditions and go through them in detail with him? why I think they are disproportionate? Why my risk is med, high if there is no evidence of contact offences?





Reading your posts, it appears that you have two distinct things you want to discuss with your PPU.

The first is emotional - why has he reached the conclusions he has. It sounds like you are frustrated that his conclusion doesn't represent who you are as a person - you know you are a low risk, so how come he doesn't see it that way. That is a very common emotion - the risk assessment models that the Police and other agencies use are very generic and have some inbuilt biases based on the behaviour of others.  For many people, it won't actually make any difference to their day-to-day life, it is just a horrible feeling that someone who doesn't know you is making a judgement call.

The second is practical - regardless of how and why, there are some conditions which you feel are disproportionate.  I would encourage you to focus on these as they are the things that will impact your daily life. Address each one with very specific statements and questions.   For example: You are prohibiting me from visiting a gym and have stated the reason is that there may be children there. As I have no history of child contact offences and can easily and legally mix with children in many other places (a shopping centre for example or walking down the street), please can you explain to me exactly what risk this restriction is mitigating and how it is legally proportionate?
xDanx
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Yankee - 16 Jul 20 12:15 PM
xDanx - 16 Jul 20 1:50 AM
khafka - 16 Jul 20 12:25 AM
I feel extremely fortunate my PPU is fairly approachable. Aside from the latest issue involving Facebook which I talked about on another post which to his credit isn't his fault. He didn't write the law!

What I would say is write down your questions and sit with them for a few days. Go back to the occasionally and make sure they make sense and are factual.

I'd then be sure to send him an email. Any time I have something I really want to double check I email him and he replies with an "OFFICIAL" stamp in the header and in the email. Keep any replies in it's own folder in your email. This gives you a chain of culpability should anything untoward happen and makes it easy to access should you need to pull it. To go one step further I usually put a little note in my planner/calendar on my PC (which is linked to my GMail) with the date and time I sent an email with a quick bit in the header about what it is about. I then do one for the reply and I head them as the following:

"[#SENT] - Notifying of new number"
"[#REPLY] - Notifying of new number"

Then I can just search "#REPLY number" and it'll pull up the information straight away and I can track the email down should I need it. The '#' are important as they break up the email. If I just searched for "reply" in Gmail it'd probably bring up 500 results. #REPLY are never shown together in emails so it makes it unique.

When you come to sending your email try and leave your emotions out of it. Try and avoid saying things like "I feel this is not correct". Try and make is succinct and formal. So something like "Can you please clarify XYZ?". That way you get you should get your answer in clear language, they can't read between any lines in the dialog and should anything come of it if anything goes awry it paints you in a much better light.



Email probably would be the better idea to discuss things with him rather than in person or phone, problem is my requests to get his email have gone unanswered. And there is the possibility I could be getting another new PPU which I have not met yet.
Are the things I listed worthy of forwarding his way to discuss? I want to know ultimately why he has interpreted my conditions the way he has and what guidance he uses to decide his interpretations. Should I mention the high court ruling about disproportionate conditions and go through them in detail with him? why I think they are disproportionate? Why my risk is med, high if there is no evidence of contact offences?





Reading your posts, it appears that you have two distinct things you want to discuss with your PPU.

The first is emotional - why has he reached the conclusions he has. It sounds like you are frustrated that his conclusion doesn't represent who you are as a person - you know you are a low risk, so how come he doesn't see it that way. That is a very common emotion - the risk assessment models that the Police and other agencies use are very generic and have some inbuilt biases based on the behaviour of others.  For many people, it won't actually make any difference to their day-to-day life, it is just a horrible feeling that someone who doesn't know you is making a judgement call.

The second is practical - regardless of how and why, there are some conditions which you feel are disproportionate.  I would encourage you to focus on these as they are the things that will impact your daily life. Address each one with very specific statements and questions.   For example: You are prohibiting me from visiting a gym and have stated the reason is that there may be children there. As I have no history of child contact offences and can easily and legally mix with children in many other places (a shopping centre for example or walking down the street), please can you explain to me exactly what risk this restriction is mitigating and how it is legally proportionate?

Very good advice from everyone, really appreciate the input.

It would seem I have a new ppu officer but he is unavailable until next month, the ppu I have had previous contact with seemed very disinterested in dealing with my questions and refused to give me his email address, because he didn't want "offenders" sending emails to their inboxes which they use for "legitimate" business. So he provided me with another email and I sent the following questions :
  • Can someone detail what their interpretations are relating to all of the conditions on my SHPO and what exactly they are prohibiting me from?
  • Do you receive any guidelines which explain the meaning behind the conditions and why they are proportionate?
  • Do you have on record when the SHPO was drafted?
  • Notes are made during each visit which I believe are referred to as "clean bit of health", am I able to obtain any copies?
  • Finally, Can you tell me what level of risk I am currently believed to be? and why?


Petra19
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xDanx - 16 Jul 20 1:50 AM
khafka - 16 Jul 20 12:25 AM
I feel extremely fortunate my PPU is fairly approachable. Aside from the latest issue involving Facebook which I talked about on another post which to his credit isn't his fault. He didn't write the law!

What I would say is write down your questions and sit with them for a few days. Go back to the occasionally and make sure they make sense and are factual.

I'd then be sure to send him an email. Any time I have something I really want to double check I email him and he replies with an "OFFICIAL" stamp in the header and in the email. Keep any replies in it's own folder in your email. This gives you a chain of culpability should anything untoward happen and makes it easy to access should you need to pull it. To go one step further I usually put a little note in my planner/calendar on my PC (which is linked to my GMail) with the date and time I sent an email with a quick bit in the header about what it is about. I then do one for the reply and I head them as the following:

"[#SENT] - Notifying of new number"
"[#REPLY] - Notifying of new number"

Then I can just search "#REPLY number" and it'll pull up the information straight away and I can track the email down should I need it. The '#' are important as they break up the email. If I just searched for "reply" in Gmail it'd probably bring up 500 results. #REPLY are never shown together in emails so it makes it unique.

When you come to sending your email try and leave your emotions out of it. Try and avoid saying things like "I feel this is not correct". Try and make is succinct and formal. So something like "Can you please clarify XYZ?". That way you get you should get your answer in clear language, they can't read between any lines in the dialog and should anything come of it if anything goes awry it paints you in a much better light.



Email probably would be the better idea to discuss things with him rather than in person or phone, problem is my requests to get his email have gone unanswered. And there is the possibility I could be getting another new PPU which I have not met yet.
Are the things I listed worthy of forwarding his way to discuss? I want to know ultimately why he has interpreted my conditions the way he has and what guidance he uses to decide his interpretations. Should I mention the high court ruling about disproportionate conditions and go through them in detail with him? why I think they are disproportionate? Why my risk is med, high if there is no evidence of contact offences?


I would like to add that I find email communication helpful in nerve-wracking situations because  I have time to collect my thoughts together. You could save it as a draft making amends if need be the next day or however long you need to feel comfortable. 

There have been times I adjust making it sound approachable and viewing it from another perspective helps. 


Edited
3 Months Ago by Petra19
punter99
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Yankee - 16 Jul 20 12:15 PM
xDanx - 16 Jul 20 1:50 AM
khafka - 16 Jul 20 12:25 AM
I feel extremely fortunate my PPU is fairly approachable. Aside from the latest issue involving Facebook which I talked about on another post which to his credit isn't his fault. He didn't write the law!

What I would say is write down your questions and sit with them for a few days. Go back to the occasionally and make sure they make sense and are factual.

I'd then be sure to send him an email. Any time I have something I really want to double check I email him and he replies with an "OFFICIAL" stamp in the header and in the email. Keep any replies in it's own folder in your email. This gives you a chain of culpability should anything untoward happen and makes it easy to access should you need to pull it. To go one step further I usually put a little note in my planner/calendar on my PC (which is linked to my GMail) with the date and time I sent an email with a quick bit in the header about what it is about. I then do one for the reply and I head them as the following:

"[#SENT] - Notifying of new number"
"[#REPLY] - Notifying of new number"

Then I can just search "#REPLY number" and it'll pull up the information straight away and I can track the email down should I need it. The '#' are important as they break up the email. If I just searched for "reply" in Gmail it'd probably bring up 500 results. #REPLY are never shown together in emails so it makes it unique.

When you come to sending your email try and leave your emotions out of it. Try and avoid saying things like "I feel this is not correct". Try and make is succinct and formal. So something like "Can you please clarify XYZ?". That way you get you should get your answer in clear language, they can't read between any lines in the dialog and should anything come of it if anything goes awry it paints you in a much better light.



Email probably would be the better idea to discuss things with him rather than in person or phone, problem is my requests to get his email have gone unanswered. And there is the possibility I could be getting another new PPU which I have not met yet.
Are the things I listed worthy of forwarding his way to discuss? I want to know ultimately why he has interpreted my conditions the way he has and what guidance he uses to decide his interpretations. Should I mention the high court ruling about disproportionate conditions and go through them in detail with him? why I think they are disproportionate? Why my risk is med, high if there is no evidence of contact offences?





Reading your posts, it appears that you have two distinct things you want to discuss with your PPU.

The first is emotional - why has he reached the conclusions he has. It sounds like you are frustrated that his conclusion doesn't represent who you are as a person - you know you are a low risk, so how come he doesn't see it that way. That is a very common emotion - the risk assessment models that the Police and other agencies use are very generic and have some inbuilt biases based on the behaviour of others.  For many people, it won't actually make any difference to their day-to-day life, it is just a horrible feeling that someone who doesn't know you is making a judgement call.

The second is practical - regardless of how and why, there are some conditions which you feel are disproportionate.  I would encourage you to focus on these as they are the things that will impact your daily life. Address each one with very specific statements and questions.   For example: You are prohibiting me from visiting a gym and have stated the reason is that there may be children there. As I have no history of child contact offences and can easily and legally mix with children in many other places (a shopping centre for example or walking down the street), please can you explain to me exactly what risk this restriction is mitigating and how it is legally proportionate?

Great wording there . It makes me think that we ought to have some draft letters on the Unlock website somewhere, that people can use for common situations, like challenging the behaviour of police and SS. Knowing what to say and how to say it, is never easy.

xDanx
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Figured I would update this post with my recent visit from my new PPU officer. Annoyingly I did not record the conversation due to not getting the software set up correctly.
Anyways, I did challenge him on a number of points relating to my orders. Going back to the demo on my ps4 he was in complete agreement with me that by deleting a demo from my console does not breach my order. But he said he still wants me to call ahead if I am to delete anything else demo wise on my console. I tried to ask about other data that is not internet history related but he kept interrupting and got a phone call where he was rushing to leave so I will likely give him a call to clarify.

I asked him if he was familiar with case law R vs Smith regarding conditions on SHPO's to be proportionate to the offense and he basically admitted he had no idea.
any changes need to go through court and he felt none of the conditions needed changing. He seemed to have no idea that I needed his or his bosses permission to make the changes to my SHPO if under 5 years.
He then of course asked the usual questions, any new relationships, how often do you do this... do that ect. Basically told me if i don't provide an answer then he will have no choice but to consider my risk high.
When he asked me about jobs I said I am not working at the moment and I am doing a uni course in hopes of getting a job in near future, reminded me that I MUST disclose to any employer. I told him that is incorrect as I do not need to disclose if I am not asked, at which point he stated "in that case it would be us who would disclose". then proceeded to insist I give names of the tutors of my uni course.

After his inspections on his way out he had a quick look around my flat including looking inside my fridge ( yes really... no joke) I was so shocked and stunned by this I just could not speak and ask him why he is looking in there.
Once he was happy he left.

Should I be asking for his bosses contact details so I can forward some complaints or wait a little longer to discuss things with my PPU?


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