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Travelling to the EU post Brexit


Travelling to the EU post Brexit

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JASB
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Ian - 24 Oct 20 4:39 PM
Ian - 22 Oct 20 10:17 AM
marcovanba - 22 Oct 20 7:12 AM

Seriously, what a mess.

My conviction is spent on February 26th 2021, following a 2 year suspended sentence conviction.

Who knows if I will be able to travel to Europe in the foreseeable. (Covid permitting)


From the BBC

Many more EU citizens with criminal records will be barred from entering the UK from January, the Home Office has said.

People sentenced to more than a year in prison will be turned away, in line with other foreign nationals.

Previously, officials had to show EU offenders presented a serious threat.

But there are concerns a no-deal Brexit could make it harder to identify foreign criminals, BBC home editor Mark Easton said.

With the UK in a transition period since it formally left the EU in January, an EU citizen can currently only be refused entry if they present a genuine, present and serious threat.

Regulations being laid in Parliament on Thursday set out the new rules for when the transition period ends, which treat EU and non-EU citizens the same.


The new rules mean from 1 January:

  • Any EU citizen sentenced to at least a year in prison will be barred
  • EU citizens who have committed any criminal offence in the past year could also be barred
  • EU citizens could also be banned if they were sentenced to less than a year in jail, with officials reviewing their full criminal history and links to the UK
  • Offenders who have not served a prison sentence could still be barred if there is evidence they are "persistent" criminals, they cause "serious harm" or their presence in the UK is not "conducive to the public good"


People involved in a sham marriage could be banned from entry, and anyone breaching customs regulations could also be turned away.



This is something I have been worrying about for some time now too. I also received a 2 year suspended sentence but it wont be spent until 2025, and even then I may be barred from travelling.
Desperately need some clarity.

 

I am in exactly the same position with an 18 month suspended sentence and on the SOR for 10 years (expiring 2025) for a downloading offence.

The lack of clarity is becoming a major concern as may be banned from visiting places I have been visiting regularly in the past without problem!

Hi

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punter99 - 23 Oct 20 10:00 AM
AB2014 - 22 Oct 20 1:11 PM
Simon1983 - 22 Oct 20 11:24 AM
Hi guys agree with all of you it is a mess, if you look at the current information out there on the new etias system that comes in if your offence was over 10 hrs ago then you don’t have to declare it, but who know what will happen nowThis was one of my big concerns post brexit, and having the likes of miss Patel as Home Secretary, she wants to bring in a system on par with entry with the USA, and following today’s announcement it will be interesting to see how the eu respond It will be interesting to see if there are any court actions from people that were ok to travel to Europe one day then can’t the next My Irish passport application is looking more realistic as the days go bye If u can’t guess I voted no to brexit for this very reason that freedom of movement would go

I think Simon means 10 years ago.... We have to remember that this is all subject to practicalities. For a start, every EU member country has a different criminal records system, and ours appears to be harsher than any of theirs. Some countries don't always record convictions unless the punishment reaches a certain threshold. So, someone might have a recent conviction that isn't shown on their record, and they could enter the UK as if they had not been convicted. As access to those criminal records systems via ECRIS depends on accepting the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, it is almost certainly not going to happen, so this is effectively just bluster to appease the tabloids. If the EU does decide to mirror what we do, they will be facing an enormous amount of paperwork if they're going to want a police certificate for every visit. Apparently, there were millions of journeys from the UK to the EU last year. Not all of them would be by UK citizens, but we're still talking tens of millions. If they start insisting on a police certificate (£55 per person) for each trip, that is a very heavy tax on tourism, although I'm sure it would be welcomed by Turkey and other non-EU countries. I strongly suspect that when the dust settles, we'll still be using ETIAS and facing the same disclose/don't disclose dilemma that faces travellers to the USA/Canada/Australia and other countries.

There are a number of things that are unclear about ETIAS. It's not supposed to be fully operational until the end of 2022, which leaves a gap from 1st Jan 2021, when the UK leaves the EU. So what happens during this period?

ETIAS is very strongly linked to ECRIS, the European database of criminal records. The UK currently passes info to ECRIS, so will that continue after December? If the UK refuses to pass info to ECRIS, because of the the ECJ being involved, then presumably ECRIS will stop passing details of their criminals to us, which would make it impossible for Priti Patel to enforce her '1 year in jail and you're barred' policy.

So I would assume that we will agree to continue to share info and then ECRIS will change things, in that all applications via ETIAS will eventually be checked against ECRIS for a criminal record. This doesn't happen at the moment, which is why people from the UK can travel to Europe without the immigration people knowing what offence they have committed or what sentence they received. All the immigration are told currently is that the person is known to UK police, but not why they are known. ECRIS will change that.

The question then becomes what offences will lead to refusal and what will be allowed. If you read some of the ETIAS websites, they suggest that any offence that attracted a 3 year prison sentence, or higher, will probably be refused, but that it would be 2 years, if the offence was people traffiking or drug dealing. They also don't rule out the possibility that individual countries might have different rules.

There doesn't seem to be any clarity around spent convictions and whether these will have to be declared or not. ETIAS will ask about any convictions in the last 10 years, so it's possible that a UK citizen, with a spent conviction, might still have to declare it.

Unlike travelling to the USA, where you can lie about not having convictions, because the USA and the EU/UK don't share details of their criminal records, it won't be possible to lie to ETIAS, because the UK does share those details with the EU, through ECRIS.

The thing about ECRIS is that you can't access it unless you agree to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, and this government keeps saying that they won't do that for anything. So, that sounds like they're giving up access to ECRIS. ECRIS isn't a database, it's a system of access to the criminal records systems of EU countries. Once we're out of the EU, it won't apply to the UK and they won't have automatic access to everyone's criminal record. Michael Gove got up on his hind legs in the House of Commons and said there are far more means of access and co-operation outside the EU, but a former Home Secretary, Theresa May, was unconvinced. Given how many years she was Home Secretary, I think she knows more about it than he does, but then I suppose Michael Gove thinks we've heard enough from experts....

=========================================================

As Chris Stacey said: Although its not formally part of the sentence that is handed down in court, the criminal record that someone comes away with effectively becomes a second sentence, which can have a long-lasting, if not lifelong, impact.

Ian
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Ian - 22 Oct 20 10:17 AM
marcovanba - 22 Oct 20 7:12 AM

Seriously, what a mess.

My conviction is spent on February 26th 2021, following a 2 year suspended sentence conviction.

Who knows if I will be able to travel to Europe in the foreseeable. (Covid permitting)


From the BBC

Many more EU citizens with criminal records will be barred from entering the UK from January, the Home Office has said.

People sentenced to more than a year in prison will be turned away, in line with other foreign nationals.

Previously, officials had to show EU offenders presented a serious threat.

But there are concerns a no-deal Brexit could make it harder to identify foreign criminals, BBC home editor Mark Easton said.

With the UK in a transition period since it formally left the EU in January, an EU citizen can currently only be refused entry if they present a genuine, present and serious threat.

Regulations being laid in Parliament on Thursday set out the new rules for when the transition period ends, which treat EU and non-EU citizens the same.


The new rules mean from 1 January:

  • Any EU citizen sentenced to at least a year in prison will be barred
  • EU citizens who have committed any criminal offence in the past year could also be barred
  • EU citizens could also be banned if they were sentenced to less than a year in jail, with officials reviewing their full criminal history and links to the UK
  • Offenders who have not served a prison sentence could still be barred if there is evidence they are "persistent" criminals, they cause "serious harm" or their presence in the UK is not "conducive to the public good"


People involved in a sham marriage could be banned from entry, and anyone breaching customs regulations could also be turned away.



This is something I have been worrying about for some time now too. I also received a 2 year suspended sentence but it wont be spent until 2025, and even then I may be barred from travelling.
Desperately need some clarity.

 

I am in exactly the same position with an 18 month suspended sentence and on the SOR for 10 years (expiring 2025) for a downloading offence.

The lack of clarity is becoming a major concern as may be banned from visiting places I have been visiting regularly in the past without problem!
punter99
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Yankee - 23 Oct 20 12:36 PM
Firstly, what the UK home office and UK media don't mention is that the current UK system for non-EU visas (which s the one Priti Patel wants to apply to EU after the Brexit transition period), has a 10 year rehabilitation period for anyone with a custodial sentence between 12 months and 4 years. If the EU were to reciprocate on a like-for-like basis, at least that provides a glimmer of hope for another segment of ex-offenders.

Secondly, my personal opinion is that the EU are unlikely to amend ETIAS rules just for one country i.e. UK.  At least the EU focuses on the types of crime (ETIAS has a list of 'serious offences') and not simply the sentence, so if the UK ends up under that regime, again the majority of ex-offenders will be OK.

But how are 'serious' offences defined. In the official ETIAS proposal, they list the following

'serious criminal offences' means the offences which correspond or are equivalent to those referred to in Article 2(2) of Framework Decision 2002/584/JHA, if they are punishable under national law by a custodial sentence or a detention order for a maximum period of at least three years.

— participation in a criminal organisation,
— terrorism,
— trafficking in human beings,
— sexual exploitation of children and child pornography,
— illicit trafficking in narcotic drugs and psychotropic substances,
— illicit trafficking in weapons, munitions and explosives,
— corruption,
— fraud, including that affecting the financial interests of the European Communities within the meaning of the Convention of 26 July 1995 on the protection of the European Communities' financial interests,
— laundering of the proceeds of crime,
— counterfeiting currency, including of the euro,
— computer-related crime,
— environmental crime, including illicit trafficking in endangered animal species and in endangered plant species and varieties,
— facilitation of unauthorised entry and residence,
— murder, grievous bodily injury,
— illicit trade in human organs and tissue,
— kidnapping, illegal restraint and hostage-taking,
— racism and xenophobia,
— organised or armed robbery,
— illicit trafficking in cultural goods, including antiques and works of art,
— swindling,
— racketeering and extortion,
— counterfeiting and piracy of products,
— forgery of administrative documents and trafficking therein,
— forgery of means of payment,
— illicit trafficking in hormonal substances and other growth promoters,
— illicit trafficking in nuclear or radioactive materials,
— trafficking in stolen vehicles,
— rape,
— arson,
— crimes within the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court,
— unlawful seizure of aircraft/ships,
— sabotage.

3. The Council may decide at any time, acting unanimously after consultation of the European Parliament under the conditions laid down in Article 39(1) of the Treaty on European Union (TEU), to add other categories of offence to the list contained in paragraph 2. The Council shall examine, in the light of the report submitted by the Commission pursuant to Article 34(3), whether the list should be extended or amended.

So in terms of types of offences it is a wide range, but the key threshold is a sentence of 3 years or more.

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Firstly, what the UK home office and UK media don't mention is that the current UK system for non-EU visas (which s the one Priti Patel wants to apply to EU after the Brexit transition period), has a 10 year rehabilitation period for anyone with a custodial sentence between 12 months and 4 years. If the EU were to reciprocate on a like-for-like basis, at least that provides a glimmer of hope for another segment of ex-offenders.

Secondly, my personal opinion is that the EU are unlikely to amend ETIAS rules just for one country i.e. UK.  At least the EU focuses on the types of crime (ETIAS has a list of 'serious offences') and not simply the sentence, so if the UK ends up under that regime, again the majority of ex-offenders will be OK.
Simon1983
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punter99 - 23 Oct 20 10:00 AM
AB2014 - 22 Oct 20 1:11 PM
Simon1983 - 22 Oct 20 11:24 AM
Hi guys agree with all of you it is a mess, if you look at the current information out there on the new etias system that comes in if your offence was over 10 hrs ago then you don’t have to declare it, but who know what will happen nowThis was one of my big concerns post brexit, and having the likes of miss Patel as Home Secretary, she wants to bring in a system on par with entry with the USA, and following today’s announcement it will be interesting to see how the eu respond It will be interesting to see if there are any court actions from people that were ok to travel to Europe one day then can’t the next My Irish passport application is looking more realistic as the days go bye If u can’t guess I voted no to brexit for this very reason that freedom of movement would go

I think Simon means 10 years ago.... We have to remember that this is all subject to practicalities. For a start, every EU member country has a different criminal records system, and ours appears to be harsher than any of theirs. Some countries don't always record convictions unless the punishment reaches a certain threshold. So, someone might have a recent conviction that isn't shown on their record, and they could enter the UK as if they had not been convicted. As access to those criminal records systems via ECRIS depends on accepting the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, it is almost certainly not going to happen, so this is effectively just bluster to appease the tabloids. If the EU does decide to mirror what we do, they will be facing an enormous amount of paperwork if they're going to want a police certificate for every visit. Apparently, there were millions of journeys from the UK to the EU last year. Not all of them would be by UK citizens, but we're still talking tens of millions. If they start insisting on a police certificate (£55 per person) for each trip, that is a very heavy tax on tourism, although I'm sure it would be welcomed by Turkey and other non-EU countries. I strongly suspect that when the dust settles, we'll still be using ETIAS and facing the same disclose/don't disclose dilemma that faces travellers to the USA/Canada/Australia and other countries.

There are a number of things that are unclear about ETIAS. It's not supposed to be fully operational until the end of 2022, which leaves a gap from 1st Jan 2021, when the UK leaves the EU. So what happens during this period?

ETIAS is very strongly linked to ECRIS, the European database of criminal records. The UK currently passes info to ECRIS, so will that continue after December? If the UK refuses to pass info to ECRIS, because of the the ECJ being involved, then presumably ECRIS will stop passing details of their criminals to us, which would make it impossible for Priti Patel to enforce her '1 year in jail and you're barred' policy.

So I would assume that we will agree to continue to share info and then ECRIS will change things, in that all applications via ETIAS will eventually be checked against ECRIS for a criminal record. This doesn't happen at the moment, which is why people from the UK can travel to Europe without the immigration people knowing what offence they have committed or what sentence they received. All the immigration are told currently is that the person is known to UK police, but not why they are known. ECRIS will change that.

The question then becomes what offences will lead to refusal and what will be allowed. If you read some of the ETIAS websites, they suggest that any offence that attracted a 3 year prison sentence, or higher, will probably be refused, but that it would be 2 years, if the offence was people traffiking or drug dealing. They also don't rule out the possibility that individual countries might have different rules.

There doesn't seem to be any clarity around spent convictions and whether these will have to be declared or not. ETIAS will ask about any convictions in the last 10 years, so it's possible that a UK citizen, with a spent conviction, might still have to declare it.

Unlike travelling to the USA, where you can lie about not having convictions, because the USA and the EU/UK don't share details of their criminal records, it won't be possible to lie to ETIAS, because the UK does share those details with the EU, through ECRIS.

Guys sadly there is to much conflicting information out there, and not even the governments of the UK or the EU know what is going on or what is going to happy, we will just have to sit and wait, as sad as it sounds, it is pointless losing sleepless nights until we see the full legislation of the new laws from both sides of the channel and how it might affect us all. we all just need to keep calm and carry on till we really know what is going to happen. 

KEEP CALM DON'T PANIC & CARRY ON

  
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AB2014 - 22 Oct 20 1:11 PM
Simon1983 - 22 Oct 20 11:24 AM
Hi guys agree with all of you it is a mess, if you look at the current information out there on the new etias system that comes in if your offence was over 10 hrs ago then you don’t have to declare it, but who know what will happen nowThis was one of my big concerns post brexit, and having the likes of miss Patel as Home Secretary, she wants to bring in a system on par with entry with the USA, and following today’s announcement it will be interesting to see how the eu respond It will be interesting to see if there are any court actions from people that were ok to travel to Europe one day then can’t the next My Irish passport application is looking more realistic as the days go bye If u can’t guess I voted no to brexit for this very reason that freedom of movement would go

I think Simon means 10 years ago.... We have to remember that this is all subject to practicalities. For a start, every EU member country has a different criminal records system, and ours appears to be harsher than any of theirs. Some countries don't always record convictions unless the punishment reaches a certain threshold. So, someone might have a recent conviction that isn't shown on their record, and they could enter the UK as if they had not been convicted. As access to those criminal records systems via ECRIS depends on accepting the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, it is almost certainly not going to happen, so this is effectively just bluster to appease the tabloids. If the EU does decide to mirror what we do, they will be facing an enormous amount of paperwork if they're going to want a police certificate for every visit. Apparently, there were millions of journeys from the UK to the EU last year. Not all of them would be by UK citizens, but we're still talking tens of millions. If they start insisting on a police certificate (£55 per person) for each trip, that is a very heavy tax on tourism, although I'm sure it would be welcomed by Turkey and other non-EU countries. I strongly suspect that when the dust settles, we'll still be using ETIAS and facing the same disclose/don't disclose dilemma that faces travellers to the USA/Canada/Australia and other countries.

There are a number of things that are unclear about ETIAS. It's not supposed to be fully operational until the end of 2022, which leaves a gap from 1st Jan 2021, when the UK leaves the EU. So what happens during this period?

ETIAS is very strongly linked to ECRIS, the European database of criminal records. The UK currently passes info to ECRIS, so will that continue after December? If the UK refuses to pass info to ECRIS, because of the the ECJ being involved, then presumably ECRIS will stop passing details of their criminals to us, which would make it impossible for Priti Patel to enforce her '1 year in jail and you're barred' policy.

So I would assume that we will agree to continue to share info and then ECRIS will change things, in that all applications via ETIAS will eventually be checked against ECRIS for a criminal record. This doesn't happen at the moment, which is why people from the UK can travel to Europe without the immigration people knowing what offence they have committed or what sentence they received. All the immigration are told currently is that the person is known to UK police, but not why they are known. ECRIS will change that.

The question then becomes what offences will lead to refusal and what will be allowed. If you read some of the ETIAS websites, they suggest that any offence that attracted a 3 year prison sentence, or higher, will probably be refused, but that it would be 2 years, if the offence was people traffiking or drug dealing. They also don't rule out the possibility that individual countries might have different rules.

There doesn't seem to be any clarity around spent convictions and whether these will have to be declared or not. ETIAS will ask about any convictions in the last 10 years, so it's possible that a UK citizen, with a spent conviction, might still have to declare it.

Unlike travelling to the USA, where you can lie about not having convictions, because the USA and the EU/UK don't share details of their criminal records, it won't be possible to lie to ETIAS, because the UK does share those details with the EU, through ECRIS.

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I can't see the EU responding with the same rules. The ETIAS system is a long way down the line and provides a one size fits all approach for those who don't need a visa but don't benefit from freedom of movement. The USA has notoriously difficult entry laws for those with criminal convictions and they are still subject to the ETIAS rules.
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Simon1983 - 22 Oct 20 11:24 AM
Hi guys agree with all of you it is a mess, if you look at the current information out there on the new etias system that comes in if your offence was over 10 hrs ago then you don’t have to declare it, but who know what will happen nowThis was one of my big concerns post brexit, and having the likes of miss Patel as Home Secretary, she wants to bring in a system on par with entry with the USA, and following today’s announcement it will be interesting to see how the eu respond It will be interesting to see if there are any court actions from people that were ok to travel to Europe one day then can’t the next My Irish passport application is looking more realistic as the days go bye If u can’t guess I voted no to brexit for this very reason that freedom of movement would go

I think Simon means 10 years ago.... We have to remember that this is all subject to practicalities. For a start, every EU member country has a different criminal records system, and ours appears to be harsher than any of theirs. Some countries don't always record convictions unless the punishment reaches a certain threshold. So, someone might have a recent conviction that isn't shown on their record, and they could enter the UK as if they had not been convicted. As access to those criminal records systems via ECRIS depends on accepting the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, it is almost certainly not going to happen, so this is effectively just bluster to appease the tabloids. If the EU does decide to mirror what we do, they will be facing an enormous amount of paperwork if they're going to want a police certificate for every visit. Apparently, there were millions of journeys from the UK to the EU last year. Not all of them would be by UK citizens, but we're still talking tens of millions. If they start insisting on a police certificate (£55 per person) for each trip, that is a very heavy tax on tourism, although I'm sure it would be welcomed by Turkey and other non-EU countries. I strongly suspect that when the dust settles, we'll still be using ETIAS and facing the same disclose/don't disclose dilemma that faces travellers to the USA/Canada/Australia and other countries.

=========================================================

As Chris Stacey said: Although its not formally part of the sentence that is handed down in court, the criminal record that someone comes away with effectively becomes a second sentence, which can have a long-lasting, if not lifelong, impact.

Simon1983
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Hi guys agree with all of you it is a mess, if you look at the current information out there on the new etias system that comes in if your offence was over 10 hrs ago then you don’t have to declare it, but who know what will happen now

This was one of my big concerns post brexit, and having the likes of miss Patel as Home Secretary, she wants to bring in a system on par with entry with the USA, and following today’s announcement it will be interesting to see how the eu respond

It will be interesting to see if there are any court actions from people that were ok to travel to Europe one day then can’t the next

My Irish passport application is looking more realistic as the days go bye

If u can’t guess I voted no to brexit for this very reason that freedom of movement would go
GO


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