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Help with disclosure ?


Help with disclosure ?

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Mr W
Mr W
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If the friend is waiting to move out, I'd (politely) put pressure on them to get moving, is there anything you can do to help him move out? You could say you're missing having your own space.
Then you can tell probation etc that he will be moving out 'soon', so no need for disclosure. Why they're making this more difficult for you, we'll never know.
I've heard of someone being told to move out of a shared flat (with adults) because they wouldn't disclose. Even though being around people is much better for rehabilitation over isolation, but hey, logic seems to go out of the window.

=====
Fighting or Accepting - its difficult to know which is right and when.
Mo22
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Hi. Covering themselves from what? The person an adult in the 40s with no children why would they want to cause me harm? I believe they would tell people and people around here and people I have knew in the past will put my life in danger. I will be victimise and have to move because people around here are dangerous and people around here say hello to me and make it even worse plus many around here have children. They seem to be focused on this a lot. At probation they were mentioning it again about disclosing. I have had nothing official yet but looks like it’s coming. This is causing me so much anxiety. I’ve already been sectioned before because of my mental health I wouldn’t be able to cope if it got out around here because I know these people are dangerous. Loads of criminal activity around here and violent people. I’ll have a breakdown why would they risk this. If worse they did disclose and they did come to accept it. What happens then? Will they start to cause them loads of stress because they would become part of risk assessment. If that does happen it cause them to resent me and then tell people because they’ve been put under pressure by police and they had nothing to do with my offences. They wasn’t even living here when I was arrested and convicted. In regards to trust it’s not really a friendship where we talk about intimate or personal things it’s a very basic friendship. We just known each other a very long time through our parents friendship and they waiting to move out. They won’t be living here forever.
JASB
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Mo22 - 19 Aug 23 4:20 AM
Hello guys. What are my rights and could you give as much advice as possible regarding closure to someone living with you. No children involved. The person is an adult. Officer wants me to disclose but I said I will not.

Hi
Though I understand the reasons / concerns / comments of others offered to you, all I can say it depends on the relationship and how you feel yourself. The latter being the important point in many ways.

As others have mentioned, the Police could be "covering the basis" and if a complaint is made, the term "public safety" is their defence no matter the outcome.

Because you say they are only a "friend", my words should be read in both the current and possible future scenario as the friendship could develop. Remember a person who is a friend holds a "trust" in you. 

I have been in this situation and I asked myself to define "Is this a relationship I would like to continue?" If it is then you have so many "emotive" considerations such as trust and morality.
Then I would ask myself "what if the relationship was to advance and endured time, then the individual discovered it?" How would I feel for breaking the "developed trust".

Do you not think that if your answers focus on "non disclosure" - that if revealed, it would not destroy any "trust" and raise the possibility of vengeance that would have consequences on you i.e. wellbeing, mental health etc etc; not to say could possibly remove any possibility of other personal relationships - if they took to "social media" or by just being verbal to your other friends.

You are past the guilt phase of your offence now, you are managing the "shame of it" which does not go away easily to most.  No one else can give you the correct answer to your scenario, though most wish to; so listen and look at what is said, then just ask yourself (a) How would you honestly feel if it was the other way round, and (b) look at who you are, and who you hope and would like to show to others you have become.

You cannot loose the "shame" of an offence by others saying nice things. It is how you have redefined yourself that will help lessen it in you.






Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
Edited
9 Months Ago by JASB
punter99
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Mo22 - 19 Aug 23 10:34 AM
It’s a friend who staying with me at the moment at my place. They’re an adult and have no children. I don’t know why they want me to disclose it to them.

If the PPU have not given you a date by which you have to disclose, and the person is only going to be there for a short period, then I would just ignore them, because they are probably being over cautious and trying to cover themselves, just in case.

But if they have given you a date then they are serious, so ask them to explain their decision in writing.
Mo22
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It’s a friend who staying with me at the moment at my place. They’re an adult and have no children. I don’t know why they want me to disclose it to them.
punter99
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Mo22 - 19 Aug 23 4:20 AM
Hello guys. What are my rights and could you give as much advice as possible regarding closure to someone living with you. No children involved. The person is an adult. Officer wants me to disclose but I said I will not.

There has to be an identifiable risk of harm to someone specific, not just a general risk of harm to some unidentified person that you might encounter accidentally, before they can disclose. Usually though that person is a child, so they ought to be able to explain to you why they want you to do this. Who is the person that is at risk in this instance and why do they want you to disclose?

In  terms of your rights. You don't have to disclose, and they can't make you, but they can do the disclosure themselves, if they want. All they have to do, is say they have identified a potential risk. They are supposed to record the reasons for their decision in writing, so you would be able to get access to it, via a SARS request, but of course by then it will be too late, because the disclosure will already have taken place. 

Have they given you a timeframe, in which they want you to do this disclosure? 
Mo22
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Hello guys. What are my rights and could you give as much advice as possible regarding closure to someone living with you. No children involved. The person is an adult. Officer wants me to disclose but I said I will not.
khafka
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Well, didn't get the job in the end. Nothing to do with disclosure or anything. It's a similar tale though - they reckon I'm basically over qualified for the role and would be concerned I wouldn't hang about once something better came along. Which is fair but I fail to see how that is my problem? The responsibility doesn't fall upon me to want to stay, it should be on the employer to make their staff want to stay.

This is a similar rejection I've had a few times which just seems totally nuts and what actually rustles my jimmies is that some of the employers that have rejected me on this then take to the media to bemoan about there being a lack of workers and nobody wants to work anymore. Not sure if this forum allows naughty language but they can fuck off with that. You had a great, super experienced member staff ready to go and you turned him down for stupid reasons.

It does annoy me slightly though as a lot of the jobs I apply for are 'smaller' ones mainly to keep the DWP off my back. If I applied for the jobs that are actually relevant and I had a decent chance of getting the volume of applications wouldn't be anywhere near the level the are but alas...

punter99
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khafka - 4 Jul 22 10:49 AM
punter99 - 4 Jul 22 10:24 AM
khafka - 2 Jul 22 1:08 PM
punter99 - 2 Jul 22 10:12 AM
AB2014 - 30 Jun 22 9:40 AM
Mark15788 - 28 Jun 22 5:45 PM
Update - I have had the contract through, start date of Friday with me starting properly next week. I am very pleased I have found a position where I can move forward with my life. Just to thank everyone who replied and commented …. xDanX, Was, Richie, AB2014 and JASB. I hope you are all well and been enjoying the on and off sun?

It's great that things are looking positive, and I'm happy to have been helpful/supportive. Since you posted, the DWP have put me on a civil service employability course, so I'm not so pessimistic about how that will work out in the long term. So, thanks straight back at you! 👍

The government said some time ago, that they wanted to see more people with convictions in employment. I suspect their thinking was, that the country is going to need a lot more workers, to do the really crappy jobs in this country, now that all the East Europeans have gone back home. 

That seems to borne out, by the shortage of labour in many sectors of the economy. There are more vacancies than there are unemployed people nowadays. The civil service in particular, was going to lead the way on this, by being more open, to taking on people with convictions.

But there is one fly in the ointment. At no point, did the government differentiate between people with convictions and SO. They were happy to give the impression, that all people with convictions were welcome in the civil service, but whether they actually meant all people, or just the ones with convictions for 'morally acceptable' offences, e.g. drug dealers, burglars, muggers etc. is still not clear.

My understanding is that they will ask about convictions and that officially, the position is that being an SO does not automatically rule you out of the job, but that there will have to be a separate risk assessment and this may then act as a de facto bar to SO getting any civil service job. We will have to see, from the employment statistics, in a few years time, whether the number of SO in employment has actually gone up or not.

But it will make a good topic for conversation, when you go on the civil service employability course...



I've recently interviewed for a position which I felt went really well. At no point was I asked about any offences or whatnot. I spoke with my social worker a few days prior, that was just a general check in and I let them know I had an interview coming up for a job I think I'd quite enjoy and I reckon I'd be good at. It's nothing amazing but it's a night shift customer service rep for University accommodation. So basically I'll be at the reception desk and essentially there in case the students have any issues/need anything etc.

Now, as far as working I actually don't have any restrictions but I need to use common sense like applying to be a janitor in a school is obvious a bit silly. My social worker seemed a bit taken aback that I mentioned I never actually told my PPU that I'd applied/interviewing for this role as they felt they'd likely have to make a judgment call and potentially inform the company about my conviction as a safe guarding measure. I just advised that the students would all be 18+ and I have no restrictions regardless and considering I've now finished all my rehabilitation courses and essentially just running down the clock now I was surprised at their concern as surely they should feel comfortable that I can go back to being a productive member of society otherwise they wouldn't have signed off on my rehab completion..?

So needless to say, my optimism has been pretty shattered as I felt really strongly that I did well but I can't' help but feel my PPU will let them know what's up and that'll be that dumped again.

Educational establishments can be a bit tricky. Colleges often have mix of students, including 16/17 year olds, as well as over 18s. Universities are usually for over 18s, but they might share some facilities with a nearby higher education college, so it is not always clear cut. There is an example of a university disclosure policy here.

https://www2.uwe.ac.uk/services/Marketing/about-us/Human%20Resources/DBS_Disclosure_Policy.pdf

If the University do not think that a DBS is required for your job, then it should not be an issue. Their HR department should have checked the rules, before advertising the job.

What the PPU will make of it, is another matter. There is a section here which might, or might not, cover your role.

"Student Services department: Staff working on an individual basis primarily with students who might fall within the definition of regulated activity for adults or children may require an enhanced disclosure depending on the nature of the role. E.g. counsellors, mentors, student support workers, needs assessors, staff in the wellbeing area. Other SSD staff and student advisers who may, in the course of providing a service to all students, also meet individually with students who are classed as ‘vulnerable adults’ due to the activities they receive."

I think that if the PPU wanted to, they could stretch this definition out, to include your job, by describing you as a student support worker, who might have unsupervised contact with vulnerable adults. Although uni students, are over the age of 18, they could still be considered vulnerable young people.  

As for whether you should tell the PPU, I think the fact that the social worker knows, is enough for now. If the social worker decides to tell the PPU, then it could be awkward, but as I said at the start, it is for the University to decide if you are suitable for the job, not the PPU. The University is perfectly capable of doing their own risk assessment, if they think the job needs a risk assessment. It not for the PPU to tell them, if a risk assessment is required or not.

However, some PPUs might think it is their job to do that, and so they might try to interfere, but it will depend on the individual PPU and what they are like.

Thanks for the link!
I might not even get the role in the end anyway so it could all be a moot point. There's been no mention of any DBS or criminal record checks of any kind so far - No mention of it in the job advert either and it was quite lengthy about the roles and requirements. I was on the fence about applying mainly from the PVG side of things, not so much U18s but the fact there is potential to interact with disabled students who might fall under that umbrella. Also looking into the PVG side of things and seemingly you're not allowed to apply to be removed from the barring for 15 years after your sentence is spent? I may have misread or misunderstood that but that sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Honestly, I'm contemplating just pulling the plug on it as it could end up being a lot of hassle that I just can't be done with, if I do I'll make sure to let my social worker know at our next appointment and I'll be honest that it was their words that scared me off from it. I get why they might feel the need to advise me about it but their bedside manner is a bit suspect at times and given the pre-sentence report they put together which was packed to the gunnels with lies and twisted statements I don't trust them in the slightest to show much tact in regards to the job if it progresses further.

Financially I have things set up now so I'm financially okay until at least April next year, albeit I am on Universal Credit. Unless I get an early disposal I'm not off the register until the start of February 2023, I'm seriously considering just waiting it out job wise. Add enough applications to get the DWP at bay but just essentially sit on the sidelines job wise for the next 6 or so months until I don't have to worry about the police getting involved and notifications and all that nonsense. I've lasted about 2 and a half years like this, another 6 months ain't going to kill me.


Don't give up! If the University don't want to do a DBS, then they obviously think the job doesn't require one.
khafka
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punter99 - 4 Jul 22 10:24 AM
khafka - 2 Jul 22 1:08 PM
punter99 - 2 Jul 22 10:12 AM
AB2014 - 30 Jun 22 9:40 AM
Mark15788 - 28 Jun 22 5:45 PM
Update - I have had the contract through, start date of Friday with me starting properly next week. I am very pleased I have found a position where I can move forward with my life. Just to thank everyone who replied and commented …. xDanX, Was, Richie, AB2014 and JASB. I hope you are all well and been enjoying the on and off sun?

It's great that things are looking positive, and I'm happy to have been helpful/supportive. Since you posted, the DWP have put me on a civil service employability course, so I'm not so pessimistic about how that will work out in the long term. So, thanks straight back at you! 👍

The government said some time ago, that they wanted to see more people with convictions in employment. I suspect their thinking was, that the country is going to need a lot more workers, to do the really crappy jobs in this country, now that all the East Europeans have gone back home. 

That seems to borne out, by the shortage of labour in many sectors of the economy. There are more vacancies than there are unemployed people nowadays. The civil service in particular, was going to lead the way on this, by being more open, to taking on people with convictions.

But there is one fly in the ointment. At no point, did the government differentiate between people with convictions and SO. They were happy to give the impression, that all people with convictions were welcome in the civil service, but whether they actually meant all people, or just the ones with convictions for 'morally acceptable' offences, e.g. drug dealers, burglars, muggers etc. is still not clear.

My understanding is that they will ask about convictions and that officially, the position is that being an SO does not automatically rule you out of the job, but that there will have to be a separate risk assessment and this may then act as a de facto bar to SO getting any civil service job. We will have to see, from the employment statistics, in a few years time, whether the number of SO in employment has actually gone up or not.

But it will make a good topic for conversation, when you go on the civil service employability course...



I've recently interviewed for a position which I felt went really well. At no point was I asked about any offences or whatnot. I spoke with my social worker a few days prior, that was just a general check in and I let them know I had an interview coming up for a job I think I'd quite enjoy and I reckon I'd be good at. It's nothing amazing but it's a night shift customer service rep for University accommodation. So basically I'll be at the reception desk and essentially there in case the students have any issues/need anything etc.

Now, as far as working I actually don't have any restrictions but I need to use common sense like applying to be a janitor in a school is obvious a bit silly. My social worker seemed a bit taken aback that I mentioned I never actually told my PPU that I'd applied/interviewing for this role as they felt they'd likely have to make a judgment call and potentially inform the company about my conviction as a safe guarding measure. I just advised that the students would all be 18+ and I have no restrictions regardless and considering I've now finished all my rehabilitation courses and essentially just running down the clock now I was surprised at their concern as surely they should feel comfortable that I can go back to being a productive member of society otherwise they wouldn't have signed off on my rehab completion..?

So needless to say, my optimism has been pretty shattered as I felt really strongly that I did well but I can't' help but feel my PPU will let them know what's up and that'll be that dumped again.

Educational establishments can be a bit tricky. Colleges often have mix of students, including 16/17 year olds, as well as over 18s. Universities are usually for over 18s, but they might share some facilities with a nearby higher education college, so it is not always clear cut. There is an example of a university disclosure policy here.

https://www2.uwe.ac.uk/services/Marketing/about-us/Human%20Resources/DBS_Disclosure_Policy.pdf

If the University do not think that a DBS is required for your job, then it should not be an issue. Their HR department should have checked the rules, before advertising the job.

What the PPU will make of it, is another matter. There is a section here which might, or might not, cover your role.

"Student Services department: Staff working on an individual basis primarily with students who might fall within the definition of regulated activity for adults or children may require an enhanced disclosure depending on the nature of the role. E.g. counsellors, mentors, student support workers, needs assessors, staff in the wellbeing area. Other SSD staff and student advisers who may, in the course of providing a service to all students, also meet individually with students who are classed as ‘vulnerable adults’ due to the activities they receive."

I think that if the PPU wanted to, they could stretch this definition out, to include your job, by describing you as a student support worker, who might have unsupervised contact with vulnerable adults. Although uni students, are over the age of 18, they could still be considered vulnerable young people.  

As for whether you should tell the PPU, I think the fact that the social worker knows, is enough for now. If the social worker decides to tell the PPU, then it could be awkward, but as I said at the start, it is for the University to decide if you are suitable for the job, not the PPU. The University is perfectly capable of doing their own risk assessment, if they think the job needs a risk assessment. It not for the PPU to tell them, if a risk assessment is required or not.

However, some PPUs might think it is their job to do that, and so they might try to interfere, but it will depend on the individual PPU and what they are like.

Thanks for the link!
I might not even get the role in the end anyway so it could all be a moot point. There's been no mention of any DBS or criminal record checks of any kind so far - No mention of it in the job advert either and it was quite lengthy about the roles and requirements. I was on the fence about applying mainly from the PVG side of things, not so much U18s but the fact there is potential to interact with disabled students who might fall under that umbrella. Also looking into the PVG side of things and seemingly you're not allowed to apply to be removed from the barring for 15 years after your sentence is spent? I may have misread or misunderstood that but that sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Honestly, I'm contemplating just pulling the plug on it as it could end up being a lot of hassle that I just can't be done with, if I do I'll make sure to let my social worker know at our next appointment and I'll be honest that it was their words that scared me off from it. I get why they might feel the need to advise me about it but their bedside manner is a bit suspect at times and given the pre-sentence report they put together which was packed to the gunnels with lies and twisted statements I don't trust them in the slightest to show much tact in regards to the job if it progresses further.

Financially I have things set up now so I'm financially okay until at least April next year, albeit I am on Universal Credit. Unless I get an early disposal I'm not off the register until the start of February 2023, I'm seriously considering just waiting it out job wise. Add enough applications to get the DWP at bay but just essentially sit on the sidelines job wise for the next 6 or so months until I don't have to worry about the police getting involved and notifications and all that nonsense. I've lasted about 2 and a half years like this, another 6 months ain't going to kill me.


GO


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