It doesn't affect me anyway -- I'm off the books soon and have no motive to move to Ireland.

And obviously anyone reading this should ask an (Irish?) lawyer (don't trust me), but ask the right questions -- i.e. will a person unprompted by any authorities (British or Irish) to register, be prosecuted for not registering in Ireland? It's barely even a legal question, just a question of rule of law really. I really don't think so. I really don't think it's possible to be prosecuted for not guessing your way onto the Irish Sex Offender Register. A compelled action like that -- expected without any prompting --  just goes against everything I've ever come to expect from legality and law throughout the West and beyond.

As for not finding evidence of ignorance of the law being an excuse -- it's not so much as an excuse as a cause for not being prosecuted.

You see it in action whenever an American doesn't pay their British TV license unprompted.

Not trying to get anyone into trouble -- just being realistic. I went to Ireland without ever being told to join any register. Consequently, I got to wondering, why don't more SOs move to Ireland, given the desperation and desperate brainstorming and plotting that goes on in these forums with regards to moving abroad.. You could give me a story to the contrary, but I would be amazed and basically shout "fie on your law".

That, in my book, is a fact that belongs under one's hat. That's all I have to say, without further info.

Then again, we've ruined it everyone now by drawing attention to the law, ending the ignorance. So now you'll need a night of heavy drinking in order to remove the knowledge and stay legal/excusable.

I admire your confidence. When I searched online for examples of tourists/visitors successfully using ignorance of the law as a defence, in any country not just Ireland, I could not find a single example. Not a single one, anywhere in the world. .

But bear in mind that having read this article you are now fully aware of the laws in Ireland, so you have no ignorance excuse in future. if the police were to take you to court, they would probably use your internet browsing history and maybe this conversation, as proof of your knowledge too.

"Ignorance of the law, as a general rule, is no excuse."

Nah. In this case ignorance of the law is an absolutely first class excuse, or else fie on their law. I am never going to spontaneously guess my way onto the Irish Sex Offender Register. Less still can you expect anyone to guess that the Irish penal system would ever be applied to foreign legislation -- even if you tell people they scarcely can believe it.

This side of Jerusalem, a person in authority (e.g. a judge) has to tell me the Sex Offender Register exists, and that I belong on it, if they want me to join the Sex Offender Register. 

You can't expect me to go to Ireland and offer myself up to their register without any prompting or knowledge, based purely on my own personal curiosity and personal perception of the similarity between UK and Irish law, etc ("hmm, I was reading the newspaper and I just noticed that Ireland has a law about "illegal recording" that reminds me a bit of the law I broke in England about "voyeurism", so I'd better offer myself up to their penal system"). They might -- as per your source -- maintain that I indeed theoretically should have been on it all along, but to hold me actually culpable, is just too ludicrous for words.

"Grey area" doesn't even begin to cover it. Right now, for all I know, my actions would not have been illegal in Ireland, what with nuances about deleted status of files etc, which may easily vary from country to country. Are we counting on my investigative skills in that regard? As part of holiday preparation? Also how long till I'm "off" the Irish register? Which I never joined to begin with? There's no judgement to speak of here, no sentence, no prompt, nothing to go by. And is this image possession business even a "sex crime" in Ireland? Or a matter of general contraband instead? How would I know "sex crime" is even an official category in Irish law? It wasn't always, and isn't everywhere. What about if I came to Ireland from "bongo bongo land" where the concepts around sex are all different and don't translate into Irish concepts of legal transgression?  These are just rhetorical questions to highlight the fact that I don't see any coherent obligation here.  

So I accept your source, but the bit that's missing is the how the culpability actually works, in a procedural sense. Who needs to have initiated what, etc. There is a reason, for example, why people aren't prosecuted for TV License dodging on the first visit of the inspector, even if they've had a TV 10 years. It's because TV tax is a unique peculiarity of British life and if you're never prompted to sign up, you can't really be held responsible for not doing so.

The Irish SOR is not a guessable reality. It is a surprise, esoteric detail of life in Ireland that did not exist 3 decades ago, and which no tourist can guess at in advance. This isn't tax we're talk about, some universal practice which all states perform. Most European states don't have a SOR. The Irish SOR is a totally unique and little known facet of Irish life. Vanishingly few Britons are aware the RoI has a SOR.

In my experience, there are plenty of things the PPU forget to tell you about how the SOR works, or how an SHPO is going to be be interpreted. No one told me about what to do when my debit card expired for example.

But that does not prevent the PPU from arresting for a suspected breach. They do have discretion and can give you a warning if they want to. But they do not have to, so it is still a risk. If it went all the way to court, then the judge may decide to let you off with a fine, if they conclude you really did not know about the Irish SOR, or they may take a tougher line and say it was your responsibility to find out what the rules are, before you went to Ireland.

In this hypothetical scenario we are discussing, there is a clear intent to deceive the authorities and they would no doubt take a very dim view of that, resulting in a more serious level of breach and even potentially a prison sentence. Ignorance of the law, as a general rule, is no excuse.

I'm not contradicting your source.

I would simply add that procedurally -- although I'm not a lawyer -- I truly expect that someone has to sit you down and tell you a sex register EXISTS...before you can be blamed for not registering.

I was in Ireland for a week without having heard of there being a register there. I'm pretty sure I'm not in trouble -- even if all the facts be known to everyone. I'm not about to be arrested for "failure to read the CIA World Factbook properly and the fascinating chapter on the Irish Sex Offender Register"

It's not one of those things like paying tax, where everyone is assumed to know the practice exists. I don't know these things, but it sounds like a basic feature of the rule of law that a unique practice such as a particular sex register has to be made known to me, before I can be said to have any kind of obligation to it. 


 

I think I may have missed something in the above discussion.

According to Citizens Information (https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal-law/criminal-trial/sex-offenders-register/):

Do these notification requirements apply to someone convicted outside the State?
Yes. If you are convicted of a sexual offence outside Ireland and that offence is a sexual offence in Ireland, you are subject to the same Garda notification requirements if you come to live in Ireland. If you fail to notify the Gardaí of your details, the Gardaí can prosecute you for non-compliance with the requirements.

Also, a quick search of the Irish statutes (https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/18/section/13/enacted/en/html#sec13) backs this up..
 
So if you fall into the above category, my reading of it would suggest you have to notify the Garda within 3 days of arrival and annually thereafter. 

Just rolling up and hoping tor the best is unlikely to end well...

I guess if you have a SHPO or similar, that has no force while you're outside the UK, so...

I don't think I was taking a risk though. Until someone mentions to you that Ireland has a SOR, I don't see how you can be held accountable.

I'm sure if the PPU were supposed to notify the Irish police as a matter of routine, they would have been trained to do so.

I just can't game out a series of events where an open-ended vacation in Ireland results in you being made to register.

If you do what I do and fashion a nice open-ended excuse (for me I honestly told them it's conference season so I don't know how soon I'll be back, I have a bunch of random projects connected with Trinity College etc), then go to Ireland, then stay in Ireland at a place of your spontaneous choosing while already there ... I just don't see how you could wind up on the SOR.

It's not like being a fugitive. You can even interact with police etc and should be fine. Even if you get "caught", "ah well I didn't know there was an Irish register, maybe I'll just go home now if it's all the same"

All I'm saying is .. Ireland is about as good a home as England for most purposes, and by default you won't end up on the SOR just by being there. Even if you did, it might be a different sort of SOR. They might not have your paperwork etc, or be as imposing / draconian with the same confidence.

So for all the brainstorming that goes on here among those seeking a more normal life, I'm amazed there's not more attention given to Ireland.

No doubt it is possible to visit Ireland for a holiday, without arousing suspicion. Your PPU probably did not know about the SOR rules in Ireland and did not care enough to investigate them. If they had done, they might have tipped off the Garda that you were coming. It really depends on the PPU and their attitude.

We see similar things with travel companies that have rules against knowingly accepting bookings from SO. How do they find out then? In most cases, the PPU will not bother to read the travel companies t&c and tell you that you cannot go, or threaten to inform them , if you do go, so people can and probably do, just get away with it.

But every so often, on forums like this, we come across the one situation where the PPU were really keen and did do all the checks they were supposed to do. The same thing could happen with your trip to Ireland. You just got lucky that last time your PPU was lazy. Next time could different.

The Irish notification requirements are that you have to tell them your address every 12 months, so a short trip might well go under the radar. But the longer you stay there, the more the risk increases. If the UK police think you are coming back soon, they may also do nothing, but suppose you are still  missing after 6 months, when they do their home visit? At this point they may start to ask questions and then the Garda could become involved.

On the other hand, we know that UK police forces have lost track of thousands of SO. Again, due to high volumes of work and general laziness, they may have just decided not to bother looking for them. There could be hundreds of SO already living off the grid in Ireland, for all I know.

At the end of the day, it is a gamble and it might pay off. Just depends if you are willing to take that risk.

Yes, it was about someone who had breached his requirements and was living abroad. The main point, though, was that the arresting officer said that if he had just registered with them, they wouldn't have bothered him at all. It sounded like it was a formality so they could say they had Done Something, but they didn't go any further than taking details and just let people get on with their lives. He might still have been extradited for that breach of requirements, but if he'd turned up legally and just registered, there would have been no repercussions for him.

=========================================================================================================

If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)

Ok but your story is about a man being tracked down by British police, having gone to Ireland and failed the British register.

I'm talking about going to Ireland legit (notifying UK authorities), as if on holiday, no funny business. 

One key takeaway is, you notify British police that you're going to Ireland,  without saying where or how long, this doesn't bring any Irish heat on you. They don't make you register in Ireland, unless you come to their attention somehow as an SO maybe.

Go for a duly notified permanent vacation with your auntie in County Cork, live normally and freely. Mmmmaybe say it's open ended in terms of time span and don't announce the auntie's address, just initial hotels etc.

Guys...if you don't believe me, try it. Book a full week in Ireland, notifying in advance, but say you don't know the return date, and use unplanned impromptu hotels etc that you don't notify in advance. Nobody will sit you down and tell you about any Irish register. And when you're there, ask yourself why the hell you can't just stay there.