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Harmless
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 110,
Visits: 391
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+x+x+xJust so you are aware, I have looked into this for my DH and apparently it triggers as a concern flag for the MOSOVO team. So please don't do anything like that before you are well and truly off the SOR! Although I do also have to wonder, what would happen if you genuinely lost your passport (or, as I did when I was 19, manage to put it through the washing machine and ruin it!!) No worries, I wouldn't do that now, and anyway, if I did, I would be required by law to give them the new passport number (which would then stay on their system for 10 years, long after I'm off the SOR!). If you genuinely lose your passport and get a replacement, anyone on the SOR would be required to notify this to the PPU without being prompted to do so, and even if you're not planning on travelling. It's one of the basic requirements. No different from your passport expiring normally and getting a replacement - you have to report this on your own initiative. If you passport expires/is lost/damaged/stolen etc. and then you don't get a new one, I can't see anything saying you have to tell them that you simply don't have a passport anymore. But the minute you get a new one, you have to tell them, even if you're not going anywhere. Both the Passport office and DVLA have a marker on their system which alerts the PPU if there is any change - this was originally introduced to act as a deterrent after the PPUs discovered people changing their name, getting new documents and not notifying. As it's a legal requirement to notify within 3 days of any change to passport (or driving licence if no passport and DL used as identity document) this marker should be irrelevant to anyone (hopefully all on this forum) looking to play by the rules. What's the point in having to notify then, if they've already got it all worked out?
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.1K,
Visits: 7.4K
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+x+x+x+xJust so you are aware, I have looked into this for my DH and apparently it triggers as a concern flag for the MOSOVO team. So please don't do anything like that before you are well and truly off the SOR! Although I do also have to wonder, what would happen if you genuinely lost your passport (or, as I did when I was 19, manage to put it through the washing machine and ruin it!!) No worries, I wouldn't do that now, and anyway, if I did, I would be required by law to give them the new passport number (which would then stay on their system for 10 years, long after I'm off the SOR!). If you genuinely lose your passport and get a replacement, anyone on the SOR would be required to notify this to the PPU without being prompted to do so, and even if you're not planning on travelling. It's one of the basic requirements. No different from your passport expiring normally and getting a replacement - you have to report this on your own initiative. If you passport expires/is lost/damaged/stolen etc. and then you don't get a new one, I can't see anything saying you have to tell them that you simply don't have a passport anymore. But the minute you get a new one, you have to tell them, even if you're not going anywhere. Both the Passport office and DVLA have a marker on their system which alerts the PPU if there is any change - this was originally introduced to act as a deterrent after the PPUs discovered people changing their name, getting new documents and not notifying. As it's a legal requirement to notify within 3 days of any change to passport (or driving licence if no passport and DL used as identity document) this marker should be irrelevant to anyone (hopefully all on this forum) looking to play by the rules. What's the point in having to notify then, if they've already got it all worked out? What's the point of bureaucracy? Seriously?  Actually, I believe it may have started in the days when they could stop you travelling, but when the regulations about that changed, this bit didn't. BenS is really clued-up on this stuff, so I'm sure he'll know if that's how it happened.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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BenS
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 301,
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+x+x+x+x+xJust so you are aware, I have looked into this for my DH and apparently it triggers as a concern flag for the MOSOVO team. So please don't do anything like that before you are well and truly off the SOR! Although I do also have to wonder, what would happen if you genuinely lost your passport (or, as I did when I was 19, manage to put it through the washing machine and ruin it!!) No worries, I wouldn't do that now, and anyway, if I did, I would be required by law to give them the new passport number (which would then stay on their system for 10 years, long after I'm off the SOR!). If you genuinely lose your passport and get a replacement, anyone on the SOR would be required to notify this to the PPU without being prompted to do so, and even if you're not planning on travelling. It's one of the basic requirements. No different from your passport expiring normally and getting a replacement - you have to report this on your own initiative. If you passport expires/is lost/damaged/stolen etc. and then you don't get a new one, I can't see anything saying you have to tell them that you simply don't have a passport anymore. But the minute you get a new one, you have to tell them, even if you're not going anywhere. Both the Passport office and DVLA have a marker on their system which alerts the PPU if there is any change - this was originally introduced to act as a deterrent after the PPUs discovered people changing their name, getting new documents and not notifying. As it's a legal requirement to notify within 3 days of any change to passport (or driving licence if no passport and DL used as identity document) this marker should be irrelevant to anyone (hopefully all on this forum) looking to play by the rules. What's the point in having to notify then, if they've already got it all worked out? What's the point of bureaucracy? Seriously? Actually, I believe it may have started in the days when they could stop you travelling, but when the regulations about that changed, this bit didn't. BenS is really clued-up on this stuff, so I'm sure he'll know if that's how it happened. Thanks, AB2014, but I'm afraid I don't! What do you mean about "the days when they could stop you travelling"? Do you mean that in the past, RSOs were automatically barred from leaving the UK? There isn't much point in the whole bureaucratic process. If you leave the UK without notifying when you are required to notify, then they will just catch you when you come back. This has happened, there are news articles around, RSOs have been sentenced to a few months in prison for this. Technically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. It seems pointless having to notify travel when you are not banned from a certain country - especially for EU/EEA/Switzerland, when we at present have unconditional right of entry, so it all seems utterly pointless. More vengeance and punishment than any public good.
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.1K,
Visits: 7.4K
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+x+x+x+x+x+xJust so you are aware, I have looked into this for my DH and apparently it triggers as a concern flag for the MOSOVO team. So please don't do anything like that before you are well and truly off the SOR! Although I do also have to wonder, what would happen if you genuinely lost your passport (or, as I did when I was 19, manage to put it through the washing machine and ruin it!!) No worries, I wouldn't do that now, and anyway, if I did, I would be required by law to give them the new passport number (which would then stay on their system for 10 years, long after I'm off the SOR!). If you genuinely lose your passport and get a replacement, anyone on the SOR would be required to notify this to the PPU without being prompted to do so, and even if you're not planning on travelling. It's one of the basic requirements. No different from your passport expiring normally and getting a replacement - you have to report this on your own initiative. If you passport expires/is lost/damaged/stolen etc. and then you don't get a new one, I can't see anything saying you have to tell them that you simply don't have a passport anymore. But the minute you get a new one, you have to tell them, even if you're not going anywhere. Both the Passport office and DVLA have a marker on their system which alerts the PPU if there is any change - this was originally introduced to act as a deterrent after the PPUs discovered people changing their name, getting new documents and not notifying. As it's a legal requirement to notify within 3 days of any change to passport (or driving licence if no passport and DL used as identity document) this marker should be irrelevant to anyone (hopefully all on this forum) looking to play by the rules. What's the point in having to notify then, if they've already got it all worked out? What's the point of bureaucracy? Seriously? Actually, I believe it may have started in the days when they could stop you travelling, but when the regulations about that changed, this bit didn't. BenS is really clued-up on this stuff, so I'm sure he'll know if that's how it happened. Thanks, AB2014, but I'm afraid I don't! What do you mean about "the days when they could stop you travelling"? Do you mean that in the past, RSOs were automatically barred from leaving the UK? There isn't much point in the whole bureaucratic process. If you leave the UK without notifying when you are required to notify, then they will just catch you when you come back. This has happened, there are news articles around, RSOs have been sentenced to a few months in prison for this. Technically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. It seems pointless having to notify travel when you are not banned from a certain country - especially for EU/EEA/Switzerland, when we at present have unconditional right of entry, so it all seems utterly pointless. More vengeance and punishment than any public good. It took me a while to look it up, but there used to be a provision for the police to apply to a magistrates court for a travel ban order. I suspect that was ended when they introduced SHPOs, as I believe they can include travel bans if that is considered necessary by the court (effectively, if the police request it...). As always, this high-profile stuff about travelling is more about the government of the day wanting to be seen to be Doing Something. Criminal Justice has always been an arms race in politics, and as Ian Hislop said on HIGNFY, "Easy target... no public sympathy... makes you look tough."  
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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Harmless
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 110,
Visits: 391
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+x+xOk yes. That makes sense. Currently the Schengen visa application doesn’t require criminal record disclosure so even if we had to apply for one, we wouldn’t have to disclose? If they don't ask, you don't have to tell them, but UK citizens don't need a Schengen visa yet. The rules may change when we leave the EU. How long does a Shengen Visa last? Is there something one can do now -- apply for a particular Visa which requires no disclosure, even if we don't strictly need it, and have it last years hence?
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Harmless
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 110,
Visits: 391
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+xTechnically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. I do wonder, however, about the non-illegal variation of the above plan. Declare a trip to Ireland, and go openly. Thence to a second port of call, unplanned in advance (make no special secret of even that, once it's done). Or planned in advance so completely in one's head as to render the illegality imponderable. I wonder whether, under such circumstances, the second port of call has been forewarned in any way. More generally, I tend to wonder what the regime is like in Ireland for someone simply wishing to stay or even visit (if I go hotel hopping around Ireland do I have to inform the cops there? I know there's an arrangement). I'm amazed Ireland hasn't been discussed more in these forums, seeing as it's like a chunk of Britain which is out from under the Crown and yet integrated with the economy etc, therefore just plain interesting.
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.1K,
Visits: 7.4K
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+x+x+xOk yes. That makes sense. Currently the Schengen visa application doesn’t require criminal record disclosure so even if we had to apply for one, we wouldn’t have to disclose? If they don't ask, you don't have to tell them, but UK citizens don't need a Schengen visa yet. The rules may change when we leave the EU. How long does a Shengen Visa last? Is there something one can do now -- apply for a particular Visa which requires no disclosure, even if we don't strictly need it, and have it last years hence? Not sure how long they last, but if you hold a UK passport, you aren't eligible to apply while the UK is in the EU. Once we're out, as the UK will be visa-free, you could only get a visa by convincing them that you need one. For example, you could tell them you have a criminal record, which defeats the object. In the future, the ETIAS system will be based on the previous ten years, so if you have a conviction that's more than 10 years old, you won't have to disclose it.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.1K,
Visits: 7.4K
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+x+xTechnically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. I do wonder, however, about the non-illegal variation of the above plan. Declare a trip to Ireland, and go openly. Thence to a second port of call, unplanned in advance (make no special secret of even that, once it's done). Or planned in advance so completely in one's head as to render the illegality imponderable. I wonder whether, under such circumstances, the second port of call has been forewarned in any way. More generally, I tend to wonder what the regime is like in Ireland for someone simply wishing to stay or even visit (if I go hotel hopping around Ireland do I have to inform the cops there? I know there's an arrangement). I'm amazed Ireland hasn't been discussed more in these forums, seeing as it's like a chunk of Britain which is out from under the Crown and yet integrated with the economy etc, therefore just plain interesting. In 2008, I was banged up with a guy who had been extradited from the RoI. He'd just gone there without notifying. There were all sorts of ridiculous elements to the case, and the Irish judge wanted to throw it out. Anyway, the officer who came to arrest him told him that if he'd signed on their register, that would have been the end of it. Of course, that was 11 years ago, but don't forget that behind all the matey talk about the EU and old friendships, there are plenty of people there who are less fond of the UK government. I'm not giving an opinion on that, I'm just saying.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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Harmless
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 110,
Visits: 391
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+x+x+xTechnically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. I do wonder, however, about the non-illegal variation of the above plan. Declare a trip to Ireland, and go openly. Thence to a second port of call, unplanned in advance (make no special secret of even that, once it's done). Or planned in advance so completely in one's head as to render the illegality imponderable. I wonder whether, under such circumstances, the second port of call has been forewarned in any way. More generally, I tend to wonder what the regime is like in Ireland for someone simply wishing to stay or even visit (if I go hotel hopping around Ireland do I have to inform the cops there? I know there's an arrangement). I'm amazed Ireland hasn't been discussed more in these forums, seeing as it's like a chunk of Britain which is out from under the Crown and yet integrated with the economy etc, therefore just plain interesting. In 2008, I was banged up with a guy who had been extradited from the RoI. He'd just gone there without notifying. There were all sorts of ridiculous elements to the case, and the Irish judge wanted to throw it out. Anyway, the officer who came to arrest him told him that if he'd signed on their register, that would have been the end of it. Of course, that was 11 years ago, but don't forget that behind all the matey talk about the EU and old friendships, there are plenty of people there who are less fond of the UK government. I'm not giving an opinion on that, I'm just saying. Hang on - why an Irish judge? Surely the crime was not notifying the British police? Or was it not notifying the Irish police? If he was extradited then the crime was a British one so why an Irish judge? He might indeed have had to sign on in Ireland, but failure to do that would not result in extradition, right?
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.1K,
Visits: 7.4K
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+x+x+x+xTechnically you could leave and return without notifying if you first travel to Ireland by land (from Northern Ireland) or sea, then travelled further afield from Ireland, also returning to Ireland, before travelling back to the UK with no passport controls. Note that despite the Common Travel Area, Dublin Airport still checks the passports of people flying in from the UK - this would appear by accident rather than design: the airport is not configured to segregate incoming travellers depending on place of origin ( https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/more-passport-e-readers-for-dublin-airport-in-bid-to-cut-delays-1.3920014) - even people on flights from elsewhere in the Republic of Ireland have to go through passport control in Dublin! On the other hand, flying from Ireland to the UK, there is no passport control at any airport. But anyway, this strategy would be illegal and who knows how much Ireland and the UK share with each other about arriving passengers - they jointly oversee a common passport area after all, just like the Schengen countries are jointly responsible for their immigration duties. I do wonder, however, about the non-illegal variation of the above plan. Declare a trip to Ireland, and go openly. Thence to a second port of call, unplanned in advance (make no special secret of even that, once it's done). Or planned in advance so completely in one's head as to render the illegality imponderable. I wonder whether, under such circumstances, the second port of call has been forewarned in any way. More generally, I tend to wonder what the regime is like in Ireland for someone simply wishing to stay or even visit (if I go hotel hopping around Ireland do I have to inform the cops there? I know there's an arrangement). I'm amazed Ireland hasn't been discussed more in these forums, seeing as it's like a chunk of Britain which is out from under the Crown and yet integrated with the economy etc, therefore just plain interesting. In 2008, I was banged up with a guy who had been extradited from the RoI. He'd just gone there without notifying. There were all sorts of ridiculous elements to the case, and the Irish judge wanted to throw it out. Anyway, the officer who came to arrest him told him that if he'd signed on their register, that would have been the end of it. Of course, that was 11 years ago, but don't forget that behind all the matey talk about the EU and old friendships, there are plenty of people there who are less fond of the UK government. I'm not giving an opinion on that, I'm just saying. Hang on - why an Irish judge? Surely the crime was not notifying the British police? Or was it not notifying the Irish police? If he was extradited then the crime was a British one so why an Irish judge? He might indeed have had to sign on in Ireland, but failure to do that would not result in extradition, right? His original offence happened in England. He found it difficult to get work after that, so he moved to the RoI, but without notifying the police. At some point, they decided he was on the run, and started looking for him, maybe via Interpol. In any case, the Gardai found him in the phone book and checked his website, then came to arrest him. That was then referred to a judge in Dublin for an extradition hearing. Due to the, let's say, exaggerated evidence offered by the UK, the judge was minded to reject the extradition, but my pad-mate decided not to contest it, and found himself back in a magistrates court in the UK. So, the offence was failure to comply with his notification requirements in the UK. In the RoI, they weren't that bothered, and said that if he had signed on their register, that would have been the end of it, presumably as no judge would grant the extradition in those circumstances.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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