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Travelling with SOR : What if you are abroad and decide to vary the countries visited ?


Travelling with SOR : What if you are abroad and decide to vary the...

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Harry53
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This is not something that I had considered doing, but lets say I visit Portugal, then Spain (as I have informed my PPU) but during my travelling decide I want to fly to Italy and then return to Spain as planned? I cannot inform any UK police station while away and it would appear to be a breach of the SOR conditions, but it is not stated anywhere to say if this is illegal or not.
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Harry53 - 26 Jan 20 10:26 PM
This is not something that I had considered doing, but lets say I visit Portugal, then Spain (as I have informed my PPU) but during my travelling decide I want to fly to Italy and then return to Spain as planned? I cannot inform any UK police station while away and it would appear to be a breach of the SOR conditions, but it is not stated anywhere to say if this is illegal or not.

Good question. 

If the plans for Italy are made after your departure from the UK there's no need to have informed them in advance while in the UK.

So you can inform them of your first port of call and then make it up as you go along.

"I'm going to Spain, then maybe somewhere else". The fact that Italy's in Shengen (open borders) makes the matter even simpler.



AB2014
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Harmless - 26 Jan 20 10:59 PM
Harry53 - 26 Jan 20 10:26 PM
This is not something that I had considered doing, but lets say I visit Portugal, then Spain (as I have informed my PPU) but during my travelling decide I want to fly to Italy and then return to Spain as planned? I cannot inform any UK police station while away and it would appear to be a breach of the SOR conditions, but it is not stated anywhere to say if this is illegal or not.

Good question. 

If the plans for Italy are made after your departure from the UK there's no need to have informed them in advance while in the UK.

So you can inform them of your first port of call and then make it up as you go along.

"I'm going to Spain, then maybe somewhere else". The fact that Italy's in Shengen (open borders) makes the matter even simpler.



It's not just about the Schengen Zone - UK passport holders have freedom of movement throughout the EU for now, whether the country is in the Schengen Zone or not.

=========================================================
Grrr! Aaargh!

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Harry53 - 26 Jan 20 10:26 PM
This is not something that I had considered doing, but lets say I visit Portugal, then Spain (as I have informed my PPU) but during my travelling decide I want to fly to Italy and then return to Spain as planned? I cannot inform any UK police station while away and it would appear to be a breach of the SOR conditions, but it is not stated anywhere to say if this is illegal or not.

Hi
Prior to sentencing I pleaded guilty and signed the SOR - I had already been on bail for 12 mths and knew I would not be sentenced for another 10 mths at least..
My probation said they was happy I could go abroad as I had just spent 2.5 mths backpacking SE Asia: whilst on bail and before my plea.
I was staying in London so went to the local police station to give them the at least 7 days notice and basically asked what the process was for notifying any changes but they did not know.
Every day I called to ask if they had found out. No was the answer
Two days before flying the Met Police PPU visited me, took my passport and took me to court for either me to be put on remand or authorise the keeping of my passport. There case was based on their saying I was only calling to build up a protective case incase anything went wrong and I was going to do a runner. _ bear in mind my words above about SE Asia.
I informed the Judge of my facts and though he authorise they keep my passport, he told them to sort out their processes and thank me for being truthful. That is the truth gents.
The gist of my story is:
1) be open with your plans,
2) you only have to say where you will stay the first 3 nights out of the UK anyway - though I did hear some local PPU's had their own rules.
3) i am sure you have nothing to hide so to keep on the good side of your PPU be honest and say your plans may change and do they wish you to "drop an email" if they change.

In the end the way you handle the communication between you and your PPU, and their actions afterwards, would at least give you knowledge on how they view you as a risk.

Good luck with whatever you decide and lets us know.



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AB2014 - 27 Jan 20 8:59 AM

It's not just about the Schengen Zone - UK passport holders have freedom of movement throughout the EU for now, whether the country is in the Schengen Zone or not.

But although we have freedom of movement through the EU (Schengen and non-Schengen), if you are in e.g. Spain and decide on a whim to get a flight to to e.g. Croatia, i.e. EU but non-Schengen, you will trigger the SISII alert at passport control. While you can't be denied entry to Croatia, the alert will reach the PPU, who might then question your honesty, even if you've done nothing illegal. So for the benefit of your relationship with your PPU, I'd advise anyone doing this to stay in Schengen, as then your PPU will not find out if you've flown from the Canary Islands to the Norwegian Arctic and back.

I agree with the sentiment that if the further travel is genuinely not premeditated then I don't think you're doing anything wrong and don't need to notify. And you can't notify anyway as you're not in the UK.
If, on the other hand, you are planning all this beforehand, e.g. notifying travel to Spain with the intent of also going to Portugal but not mentioning this, it's technically a crime, even if it's a thought crime. I would advise not having any paper or electronic trail if you intend to do this.

JASB's quote: "you only have to say where you will stay the first 3 nights out of the UK anyway." In addition to this though, you have to notify of ALL other countries you plan to visit, in addition to the country of arrival. The key word (in the context of this conversation) being "plan".
Edited
7 Months Ago by BenS
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BenS - 28 Jan 20 10:35 AM
AB2014 - 27 Jan 20 8:59 AM

It's not just about the Schengen Zone - UK passport holders have freedom of movement throughout the EU for now, whether the country is in the Schengen Zone or not.

But although we have freedom of movement through the EU (Schengen and non-Schengen), if you are in e.g. Spain and decide on a whim to get a flight to to e.g. Croatia, i.e. EU but non-Schengen, you will trigger the SISII alert at passport control. While you can't be denied entry to Croatia, the alert will reach the PPU, who might then question your honesty, even if you've done nothing illegal. So for the benefit of your relationship with your PPU, I'd advise anyone doing this to stay in Schengen, as then your PPU will not find out if you've flown from the Canary Islands to the Norwegian Arctic and back.

I agree with the sentiment that if the further travel is genuinely not premeditated then I don't think you're doing anything wrong and don't need to notify. And you can't notify anyway as you're not in the UK.
If, on the other hand, you are planning all this beforehand, e.g. notifying travel to Spain with the intent of also going to Portugal but not mentioning this, it's technically a crime, even if it's a thought crime. I would advise not having any paper or electronic trail if you intend to do this.

JASB's quote: "you only have to say where you will stay the first 3 nights out of the UK anyway." In addition to this though, you have to notify of ALL other countries you plan to visit, in addition to the country of arrival. The key word (in the context of this conversation) being "plan".

Hi Bens
I would be interested in knowing where it says you have to notify all other countries you plan on travelling to? That is also an impossible task as how do you find out about "their" equivalent to a PPU -  or whatever it will be called - in the areas/countries you may travel to?
The following is from the NARCO site:
https://www.nacro.org.uk/resettlement-advice-service/support-for-individuals/travelling-abroad-and-immigration-to-the-uk/travelling-abroad-while-on-the-sex-offenders-register/
It does not mention the aspects you are talking about but it does highlight if going to multi countries you only need to state the first.

As I mentioned; if you wish to maintain and build the confidence and trust your PPU has in you - which I assume is true if they do not stop you travelling - be open about your plans and confirm their processes for possibly changes.

Being polite may I suggest you may be over stating your concerns? 

Keep life simple, talk to the PPU about what they need and and that way you will remain offence free.






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JASB - 28 Jan 20 2:06 PM
BenS - 28 Jan 20 10:35 AM
AB2014 - 27 Jan 20 8:59 AM

It's not just about the Schengen Zone - UK passport holders have freedom of movement throughout the EU for now, whether the country is in the Schengen Zone or not.

But although we have freedom of movement through the EU (Schengen and non-Schengen), if you are in e.g. Spain and decide on a whim to get a flight to to e.g. Croatia, i.e. EU but non-Schengen, you will trigger the SISII alert at passport control. While you can't be denied entry to Croatia, the alert will reach the PPU, who might then question your honesty, even if you've done nothing illegal. So for the benefit of your relationship with your PPU, I'd advise anyone doing this to stay in Schengen, as then your PPU will not find out if you've flown from the Canary Islands to the Norwegian Arctic and back.

I agree with the sentiment that if the further travel is genuinely not premeditated then I don't think you're doing anything wrong and don't need to notify. And you can't notify anyway as you're not in the UK.
If, on the other hand, you are planning all this beforehand, e.g. notifying travel to Spain with the intent of also going to Portugal but not mentioning this, it's technically a crime, even if it's a thought crime. I would advise not having any paper or electronic trail if you intend to do this.

JASB's quote: "you only have to say where you will stay the first 3 nights out of the UK anyway." In addition to this though, you have to notify of ALL other countries you plan to visit, in addition to the country of arrival. The key word (in the context of this conversation) being "plan".

Hi Bens
I would be interested in knowing where it says you have to notify all other countries you plan on travelling to? That is also an impossible task as how do you find out about "their" equivalent to a PPU -  or whatever it will be called - in the areas/countries you may travel to?
The following is from the NARCO site:
https://www.nacro.org.uk/resettlement-advice-service/support-for-individuals/travelling-abroad-and-immigration-to-the-uk/travelling-abroad-while-on-the-sex-offenders-register/
It does not mention the aspects you are talking about but it does highlight if going to multi countries you only need to state the first.

As I mentioned; if you wish to maintain and build the confidence and trust your PPU has in you - which I assume is true if they do not stop you travelling - be open about your plans and confirm their processes for possibly changes.

Being polite may I suggest you may be over stating your concerns? 

Keep life simple, talk to the PPU about what they need and and that way you will remain offence free.





I think BenS is saying that you have to tell your local PPU where you're going, not the police of the destination countries. The details are laid out in the law here (sorry, forgot the link before), and it specifically says "the country (or, if there is more than one, the first country) to which he will travel and his point of arrival (determined in accordance with the regulations) in that country". So, the law says that if you're going to more than one country, you only need to tell them about the first one. It does refer to regulations that may be made by the Secretary of State, but I'm not aware of anything extra.

On the subject of PPU, it is better to have a good relationship with them, so it might help to give them all the info, but there is no requirement in the law. I'd have to say that BenS knows his stuff, he's walked the walk and isn't one to worry unnecessarily, so maybe this is about how the law may have changed over time.

=========================================================
Grrr! Aaargh!

Edited
7 Months Ago by AB2014
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AB2014 - 28 Jan 20 3:05 PM
JASB - 28 Jan 20 2:06 PM
BenS - 28 Jan 20 10:35 AM
AB2014 - 27 Jan 20 8:59 AM

It's not just about the Schengen Zone - UK passport holders have freedom of movement throughout the EU for now, whether the country is in the Schengen Zone or not.

But although we have freedom of movement through the EU (Schengen and non-Schengen), if you are in e.g. Spain and decide on a whim to get a flight to to e.g. Croatia, i.e. EU but non-Schengen, you will trigger the SISII alert at passport control. While you can't be denied entry to Croatia, the alert will reach the PPU, who might then question your honesty, even if you've done nothing illegal. So for the benefit of your relationship with your PPU, I'd advise anyone doing this to stay in Schengen, as then your PPU will not find out if you've flown from the Canary Islands to the Norwegian Arctic and back.

I agree with the sentiment that if the further travel is genuinely not premeditated then I don't think you're doing anything wrong and don't need to notify. And you can't notify anyway as you're not in the UK.
If, on the other hand, you are planning all this beforehand, e.g. notifying travel to Spain with the intent of also going to Portugal but not mentioning this, it's technically a crime, even if it's a thought crime. I would advise not having any paper or electronic trail if you intend to do this.

JASB's quote: "you only have to say where you will stay the first 3 nights out of the UK anyway." In addition to this though, you have to notify of ALL other countries you plan to visit, in addition to the country of arrival. The key word (in the context of this conversation) being "plan".

Hi Bens
I would be interested in knowing where it says you have to notify all other countries you plan on travelling to? That is also an impossible task as how do you find out about "their" equivalent to a PPU -  or whatever it will be called - in the areas/countries you may travel to?
The following is from the NARCO site:
https://www.nacro.org.uk/resettlement-advice-service/support-for-individuals/travelling-abroad-and-immigration-to-the-uk/travelling-abroad-while-on-the-sex-offenders-register/
It does not mention the aspects you are talking about but it does highlight if going to multi countries you only need to state the first.

As I mentioned; if you wish to maintain and build the confidence and trust your PPU has in you - which I assume is true if they do not stop you travelling - be open about your plans and confirm their processes for possibly changes.

Being polite may I suggest you may be over stating your concerns? 

Keep life simple, talk to the PPU about what they need and and that way you will remain offence free.





I think BenS is saying that you have to tell your local PPU where you're going, not the police of the destination countries. The details are laid out in the law here, and it specifically says "the country (or, if there is more than one, the first country) to which he will travel and his point of arrival (determined in accordance with the regulations) in that country". So, the law says that if you're going to more than one country, you only need to tell them about the first one. It does refer to regulations that may be made by the Secretary of State, but I'm not aware of anything extra.

On the subject of PPU, it is better to have a good relationship with them, so it might help to give them all the info, but there is no requirement in the law. I'd have to say that BenS knows his stuff, he's walked the walk and isn't one to worry unnecessarily, so maybe this is about how the law may have changed over time.

The foreign travel notification form asks indeed the first destination point of arrival but also asks details of ANY other subsequent destination. So, I usually give a full list of destinations and accommodations (if known).
Once I asked my PPU "what if I am staying abroad for say one month or two and I want to travel from there to a third country?do I have to notify you before that trip happens (when I am already abroad)?". His reply was "no, you do not have to. But if you want ,you can do it". Not sure if that can be considered a general rule or it depends on the PPU
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AB2014 - 28 Jan 20 3:05 PM
JASB - 28 Jan 20 2:06 PM
BenS - 28 Jan 20 10:35 AM
AB2014 - 27 Jan 20 8:59 AM

It's not just about the Schengen Zone - UK passport holders have freedom of movement throughout the EU for now, whether the country is in the Schengen Zone or not.

But although we have freedom of movement through the EU (Schengen and non-Schengen), if you are in e.g. Spain and decide on a whim to get a flight to to e.g. Croatia, i.e. EU but non-Schengen, you will trigger the SISII alert at passport control. While you can't be denied entry to Croatia, the alert will reach the PPU, who might then question your honesty, even if you've done nothing illegal. So for the benefit of your relationship with your PPU, I'd advise anyone doing this to stay in Schengen, as then your PPU will not find out if you've flown from the Canary Islands to the Norwegian Arctic and back.

I agree with the sentiment that if the further travel is genuinely not premeditated then I don't think you're doing anything wrong and don't need to notify. And you can't notify anyway as you're not in the UK.
If, on the other hand, you are planning all this beforehand, e.g. notifying travel to Spain with the intent of also going to Portugal but not mentioning this, it's technically a crime, even if it's a thought crime. I would advise not having any paper or electronic trail if you intend to do this.

JASB's quote: "you only have to say where you will stay the first 3 nights out of the UK anyway." In addition to this though, you have to notify of ALL other countries you plan to visit, in addition to the country of arrival. The key word (in the context of this conversation) being "plan".

Hi Bens
I would be interested in knowing where it says you have to notify all other countries you plan on travelling to? That is also an impossible task as how do you find out about "their" equivalent to a PPU -  or whatever it will be called - in the areas/countries you may travel to?
The following is from the NARCO site:
https://www.nacro.org.uk/resettlement-advice-service/support-for-individuals/travelling-abroad-and-immigration-to-the-uk/travelling-abroad-while-on-the-sex-offenders-register/
It does not mention the aspects you are talking about but it does highlight if going to multi countries you only need to state the first.

As I mentioned; if you wish to maintain and build the confidence and trust your PPU has in you - which I assume is true if they do not stop you travelling - be open about your plans and confirm their processes for possibly changes.

Being polite may I suggest you may be over stating your concerns? 

Keep life simple, talk to the PPU about what they need and and that way you will remain offence free.





I think BenS is saying that you have to tell your local PPU where you're going, not the police of the destination countries. The details are laid out in the law here (sorry, forgot the link before), and it specifically says "the country (or, if there is more than one, the first country) to which he will travel and his point of arrival (determined in accordance with the regulations) in that country". So, the law says that if you're going to more than one country, you only need to tell them about the first one. It does refer to regulations that may be made by the Secretary of State, but I'm not aware of anything extra.

On the subject of PPU, it is better to have a good relationship with them, so it might help to give them all the info, but there is no requirement in the law. I'd have to say that BenS knows his stuff, he's walked the walk and isn't one to worry unnecessarily, so maybe this is about how the law may have changed over time.

Hi
You know I wasn't being offensive towards or about his experience. Smile
The law as you state is what I was - attempting - to highlight and so certain concerns mentioned could be ignored.



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JGUK68 - 28 Jan 20 4:16 PM
AB2014 - 28 Jan 20 3:05 PM
JASB - 28 Jan 20 2:06 PM
BenS - 28 Jan 20 10:35 AM
AB2014 - 27 Jan 20 8:59 AM

It's not just about the Schengen Zone - UK passport holders have freedom of movement throughout the EU for now, whether the country is in the Schengen Zone or not.

But although we have freedom of movement through the EU (Schengen and non-Schengen), if you are in e.g. Spain and decide on a whim to get a flight to to e.g. Croatia, i.e. EU but non-Schengen, you will trigger the SISII alert at passport control. While you can't be denied entry to Croatia, the alert will reach the PPU, who might then question your honesty, even if you've done nothing illegal. So for the benefit of your relationship with your PPU, I'd advise anyone doing this to stay in Schengen, as then your PPU will not find out if you've flown from the Canary Islands to the Norwegian Arctic and back.

I agree with the sentiment that if the further travel is genuinely not premeditated then I don't think you're doing anything wrong and don't need to notify. And you can't notify anyway as you're not in the UK.
If, on the other hand, you are planning all this beforehand, e.g. notifying travel to Spain with the intent of also going to Portugal but not mentioning this, it's technically a crime, even if it's a thought crime. I would advise not having any paper or electronic trail if you intend to do this.

JASB's quote: "you only have to say where you will stay the first 3 nights out of the UK anyway." In addition to this though, you have to notify of ALL other countries you plan to visit, in addition to the country of arrival. The key word (in the context of this conversation) being "plan".

Hi Bens
I would be interested in knowing where it says you have to notify all other countries you plan on travelling to? That is also an impossible task as how do you find out about "their" equivalent to a PPU -  or whatever it will be called - in the areas/countries you may travel to?
The following is from the NARCO site:
https://www.nacro.org.uk/resettlement-advice-service/support-for-individuals/travelling-abroad-and-immigration-to-the-uk/travelling-abroad-while-on-the-sex-offenders-register/
It does not mention the aspects you are talking about but it does highlight if going to multi countries you only need to state the first.

As I mentioned; if you wish to maintain and build the confidence and trust your PPU has in you - which I assume is true if they do not stop you travelling - be open about your plans and confirm their processes for possibly changes.

Being polite may I suggest you may be over stating your concerns? 

Keep life simple, talk to the PPU about what they need and and that way you will remain offence free.





I think BenS is saying that you have to tell your local PPU where you're going, not the police of the destination countries. The details are laid out in the law here, and it specifically says "the country (or, if there is more than one, the first country) to which he will travel and his point of arrival (determined in accordance with the regulations) in that country". So, the law says that if you're going to more than one country, you only need to tell them about the first one. It does refer to regulations that may be made by the Secretary of State, but I'm not aware of anything extra.

On the subject of PPU, it is better to have a good relationship with them, so it might help to give them all the info, but there is no requirement in the law. I'd have to say that BenS knows his stuff, he's walked the walk and isn't one to worry unnecessarily, so maybe this is about how the law may have changed over time.

The foreign travel notification form asks indeed the first destination point of arrival but also asks details of ANY other subsequent destination. So, I usually give a full list of destinations and accommodations (if known).
Once I asked my PPU "what if I am staying abroad for say one month or two and I want to travel from there to a third country?do I have to notify you before that trip happens (when I am already abroad)?". His reply was "no, you do not have to. But if you want ,you can do it". Not sure if that can be considered a general rule or it depends on the PPU

Hi
I mentioned early my experience with the Met Police when trying to inform them of my travels. Not a good one BUT I would always discuss them and be open by - in writing - informing them there could be diversions which I would be happy to discus with them on my return if necessary.
As most of us say, our relationship is too important to mishandle and possibly creating a thinking / environment of mistrust.

Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope is for tomorrow else what is left if you remove a mans hope.
GO


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