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Yankee
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+x+xI think it’s important to remember that ETIAS will have a soft introduction and not be fully valid until the end of 2020 which is more or less on the same timeline as the transition period.It’s an absolutely hellhole for me because I am a Greek National and my husband is English on the SOR until August next year. I can’t bear the thought of not being able to go back to Greece with him. Greece has the strictest passport laws so I can’t get him one even though we have been married six years. My parents have been married 42 years yet my mum still doesn’t qualify either! What I have been told is that EU citizens family members have the right to travel freely with their EU spouses and all visas should be issued free of charge. This then made me wonder if we do not qualify for ETIAS then you apply for a Schengen visa to the country you wish to travel to. I’ve looked at Schengen visa applications to Greece and it doesn’t ask about criminal records. So I may take a pre emotive strike with my husband next year and apply for a Schengen visa for him before ETIAS comes into places, because my understanding is that Schengen trumps ETIAS. I do wonder also about this whole sis2 thing because from what I’ve seen the records drop off and are held for three months maximum. So if you had a new passport number and you were no longer on the SOR then by rights you could technically side skirt the issue. It also depends how ETIAS decides to define ‘serious crime’ because the idea is that they don’t want people on terrorist watch lists coming in. I imagine being on the SOR would make him automatically qualify under serious crime even though I do believe in Greece the offence he committed is not classified as such. I spoke with the Home office about this and other non related criminal records things regarding Brexit and they couldn’t answer one question. They don’t know, so it’s all still speculation unfortunately. In any case, tour operators will start selling summer 2019 holidays soon and they will need to be up on whether UK nationals will need visas so I’d imagine a decision will have to be made soon. 😂 I like your thinking about getting a visa now, but I'm not sure he can get one, because as a UK citizen he already has freedom of movement. As for tour operators, they can just put something in the small print to put the responsibility on travellers to have the necessary documents.  That gets around publishing deadlines and gets them off the hook.  In any case, if we have a transition period, the current rules should apply until the end of the transition, which gives us time to plan what we're all going to do. Even on a worse case with a hard brexit and no transition period, if you can 'survive' from March 19th 2019 until August 2019 your husband will then be off the SOR. At that point, get a new UK passport just to be on the safe side (it won't be on the Schengen information system anywhere) and should be good regardless of how ETIAS is implemented. We are still going to have lots of tourist travel after Brexit and there's no way they will allow ETIAS to have direct access to criminal record information. The only longer term impact will be if you want to move to Greece permanently and the residence visa process may require a police certificate - hopefully for you at that point your husband will have been rehabilitated for a sufficient length of time for the authorities to approve.
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
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+xI think it’s important to remember that ETIAS will have a soft introduction and not be fully valid until the end of 2020 which is more or less on the same timeline as the transition period.It’s an absolutely hellhole for me because I am a Greek National and my husband is English on the SOR until August next year. I can’t bear the thought of not being able to go back to Greece with him. Greece has the strictest passport laws so I can’t get him one even though we have been married six years. My parents have been married 42 years yet my mum still doesn’t qualify either! What I have been told is that EU citizens family members have the right to travel freely with their EU spouses and all visas should be issued free of charge. This then made me wonder if we do not qualify for ETIAS then you apply for a Schengen visa to the country you wish to travel to. I’ve looked at Schengen visa applications to Greece and it doesn’t ask about criminal records. So I may take a pre emotive strike with my husband next year and apply for a Schengen visa for him before ETIAS comes into places, because my understanding is that Schengen trumps ETIAS. I do wonder also about this whole sis2 thing because from what I’ve seen the records drop off and are held for three months maximum. So if you had a new passport number and you were no longer on the SOR then by rights you could technically side skirt the issue. It also depends how ETIAS decides to define ‘serious crime’ because the idea is that they don’t want people on terrorist watch lists coming in. I imagine being on the SOR would make him automatically qualify under serious crime even though I do believe in Greece the offence he committed is not classified as such. I spoke with the Home office about this and other non related criminal records things regarding Brexit and they couldn’t answer one question. They don’t know, so it’s all still speculation unfortunately. In any case, tour operators will start selling summer 2019 holidays soon and they will need to be up on whether UK nationals will need visas so I’d imagine a decision will have to be made soon. 😂 I like your thinking about getting a visa now, but I'm not sure he can get one, because as a UK citizen he already has freedom of movement. As for tour operators, they can just put something in the small print to put the responsibility on travellers to have the necessary documents. That gets around publishing deadlines and gets them off the hook. In any case, if we have a transition period, the current rules should apply until the end of the transition, which gives us time to plan what we're all going to do.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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hurrdedurr
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Group: Forum Members
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I think it’s important to remember that ETIAS will have a soft introduction and not be fully valid until the end of 2020 which is more or less on the same timeline as the transition period.
It’s an absolutely hellhole for me because I am a Greek National and my husband is English on the SOR until August next year. I can’t bear the thought of not being able to go back to Greece with him. Greece has the strictest passport laws so I can’t get him one even though we have been married six years. My parents have been married 42 years yet my mum still doesn’t qualify either!
What I have been told is that EU citizens family members have the right to travel freely with their EU spouses and all visas should be issued free of charge. This then made me wonder if we do not qualify for ETIAS then you apply for a Schengen visa to the country you wish to travel to. I’ve looked at Schengen visa applications to Greece and it doesn’t ask about criminal records. So I may take a pre emotive strike with my husband next year and apply for a Schengen visa for him before ETIAS comes into places, because my understanding is that Schengen trumps ETIAS.
I do wonder also about this whole sis2 thing because from what I’ve seen the records drop off and are held for three months maximum. So if you had a new passport number and you were no longer on the SOR then by rights you could technically side skirt the issue. It also depends how ETIAS decides to define ‘serious crime’ because the idea is that they don’t want people on terrorist watch lists coming in. I imagine being on the SOR would make him automatically qualify under serious crime even though I do believe in Greece the offence he committed is not classified as such.
I spoke with the Home office about this and other non related criminal records things regarding Brexit and they couldn’t answer one question. They don’t know, so it’s all still speculation unfortunately.
In any case, tour operators will start selling summer 2019 holidays soon and they will need to be up on whether UK nationals will need visas so I’d imagine a decision will have to be made soon. 😂
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Yankee
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+x+x
I am assuming for a spent offence/ someone who is not a risk the system would not report back?
That is the idea - once you're off the SOR and/or your conviction is spent, you should't be on the system and there should be no Green Notice. In reality I suspect the authorities might "forget" to take you off the system, then after travelling abroad and getting questioned, when you return from holiday you might have to proactively request the police to delete you from the system or remove the Green Notice. In any case, once you no longer have to notify under SOR and you get a new passport, there shouldn't be any details of that passport in the system and theoretically you should be able to travel like anyone else. I have yet to reach that stage so I don't know. But I am cynical of the idea that the day after you come off the SOR or your sentence is spent, your passport magically no longer flags up. That sounds too good to be true. Surely the authorities aren't going to waste any time removing ex-RSOs from the system unless they are explicitly asked to do so? Don't forget that the notification period for SOR is typically longer than the rehabilitation period for the offence (notification is 5yr-7yr-10yr-indeterminate based on your sentence). Even if your conviction is spent, if you still have to notify the details will be logged in SISII and therefore will flag your passport at UK/EU border controls. Likewise for non-EU travel and green notices - if these are issued, they will be issued for the duration of your notification period. The good news is that there are plenty of comments elsewhere on the Forum from other members who have travelled freely once their notification period has finished (one specifically mentioned using the automatic gates 2 days after his period was up and they worked...)
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BenS
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Group: Forum Members
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+x
I am assuming for a spent offence/ someone who is not a risk the system would not report back?
That is the idea - once you're off the SOR and/or your conviction is spent, you should't be on the system and there should be no Green Notice. In reality I suspect the authorities might "forget" to take you off the system, then after travelling abroad and getting questioned, when you return from holiday you might have to proactively request the police to delete you from the system or remove the Green Notice. In any case, once you no longer have to notify under SOR and you get a new passport, there shouldn't be any details of that passport in the system and theoretically you should be able to travel like anyone else. I have yet to reach that stage so I don't know. But I am cynical of the idea that the day after you come off the SOR or your sentence is spent, your passport magically no longer flags up. That sounds too good to be true. Surely the authorities aren't going to waste any time removing ex-RSOs from the system unless they are explicitly asked to do so?
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Square
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+x+x+xJust thought I'd revive this thread, as there is now some clearer information online here. The UK government is quite proud of its record in using the Schengen Information System, and says that from April 2016 to March 2017, UK alerts resulted in 13,100 hits across the EU. Meanwhile, a blog here says that the UK has always led the way on EU criminal justice policy, so things are unlikely to get any easier after Brexit. Thank you for that link. In the report, it also says: "The UK has for example uploaded details of registered sex offenders onto SIS II, enabling the UK and its EU partners to track and monitor them throughout the EU." 1) This seems to contradict what we have been led to believe about the police having discretion as to whether or not to add you to the system when you do a foreign travel notification, and seems to suggest that everyone is added, regardless of risk level or any other factor, possibly by the UK authorities, above any power that your local PPU has. Adding you to the SIS II (while still in an EU citizen) seems totally pointless, as you cannot be denied access into another EU Member State unless they have concrete evidence that you are planning to commit a crime - having previous convictions, even serious ones, is not grounds for denying entry (if it were, they would certainly arbitrarily deny entry to every RSO they ever came across). 2) "Track and monitor them throughout the EU". Hardly, as once you're in the Schengen Area, you can go anywhere from Portugal to Finland with no passport control. On point 1, the reason for reporting passport numbers to police is so that they can be added to SIS as a matter of routine. The police discretion is whether or not to issue an Interpol green notice, which should be after a risk assessment, but often isn't. On point 2, as you say, once you're in, you're in. I think that is aimed more at certain criminals who need to be tracked by various law enforcement agencies, and also at reassuring some of their own supporters who take a keen interest in criminal justice and seeing that it is applied as harshly as possible. SIS II is not something I knew about until today. I am getting more depressed by the day. My Solicitor once told me "after 5 years, this will be in the past and you can get on with life... that was one of many lies from him. Anyway, from what I have found SIS II reports back "reason for the alert and the action to be taken if the person is encountered". I am assuming for a spent offence/ someone who is not a risk the system would not report back? The concerning thing is that the system gives member countries a copy of the database every 5 minuites - so it is really up to individual countries to decide how to interpret data. I suppose I should really just try to get to all the places I want to see before March next year...
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+xJust thought I'd revive this thread, as there is now some clearer information online here. The UK government is quite proud of its record in using the Schengen Information System, and says that from April 2016 to March 2017, UK alerts resulted in 13,100 hits across the EU. Meanwhile, a blog here says that the UK has always led the way on EU criminal justice policy, so things are unlikely to get any easier after Brexit. Thank you for that link. In the report, it also says: "The UK has for example uploaded details of registered sex offenders onto SIS II, enabling the UK and its EU partners to track and monitor them throughout the EU." 1) This seems to contradict what we have been led to believe about the police having discretion as to whether or not to add you to the system when you do a foreign travel notification, and seems to suggest that everyone is added, regardless of risk level or any other factor, possibly by the UK authorities, above any power that your local PPU has. Adding you to the SIS II (while still in an EU citizen) seems totally pointless, as you cannot be denied access into another EU Member State unless they have concrete evidence that you are planning to commit a crime - having previous convictions, even serious ones, is not grounds for denying entry (if it were, they would certainly arbitrarily deny entry to every RSO they ever came across). 2) "Track and monitor them throughout the EU". Hardly, as once you're in the Schengen Area, you can go anywhere from Portugal to Finland with no passport control. On point 1, the reason for reporting passport numbers to police is so that they can be added to SIS as a matter of routine. The police discretion is whether or not to issue an Interpol green notice, which should be after a risk assessment, but often isn't. On point 2, as you say, once you're in, you're in. I think that is aimed more at certain criminals who need to be tracked by various law enforcement agencies, and also at reassuring some of their own supporters who take a keen interest in criminal justice and seeing that it is applied as harshly as possible.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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BenS
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 301,
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+xJust thought I'd revive this thread, as there is now some clearer information online here. The UK government is quite proud of its record in using the Schengen Information System, and says that from April 2016 to March 2017, UK alerts resulted in 13,100 hits across the EU. Meanwhile, a blog here says that the UK has always led the way on EU criminal justice policy, so things are unlikely to get any easier after Brexit. Thank you for that link. In the report, it also says: "The UK has for example uploaded details of registered sex offenders onto SIS II, enabling the UK and its EU partners to track and monitor them throughout the EU." 1) This seems to contradict what we have been led to believe about the police having discretion as to whether or not to add you to the system when you do a foreign travel notification, and seems to suggest that everyone is added, regardless of risk level or any other factor, possibly by the UK authorities, above any power that your local PPU has. Adding you to the SIS II (while still in an EU citizen) seems totally pointless, as you cannot be denied access into another EU Member State unless they have concrete evidence that you are planning to commit a crime - having previous convictions, even serious ones, is not grounds for denying entry (if it were, they would certainly arbitrarily deny entry to every RSO they ever came across). 2) "Track and monitor them throughout the EU". Hardly, as once you're in the Schengen Area, you can go anywhere from Portugal to Finland with no passport control.
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tedstriker
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I'm not sure this is actually anything new. The UK gave always sought to remain in all of the EU cross border security arrangements. The big thing for those with a record will be the introduction of ETIAS and whether the UK manage to (or even attempt to) negotiate an exemption or some rebranded freedom of movement.
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AB2014
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+xJust so you are aware, I have looked into this for my DH and apparently it triggers as a concern flag for the MOSOVO team. So please don't do anything like that before you are well and truly off the SOR! Although I do also have to wonder, what would happen if you genuinely lost your passport (or, as I did when I was 19, manage to put it through the washing machine and ruin it!!) No worries, I wouldn't do that now, and anyway, if I did, I would be required by law to give them the new passport number (which would then stay on their system for 10 years, long after I'm off the SOR!). If you genuinely lose your passport and get a replacement, anyone on the SOR would be required to notify this to the PPU without being prompted to do so, and even if you're not planning on travelling. It's one of the basic requirements. No different from your passport expiring normally and getting a replacement - you have to report this on your own initiative. If you passport expires/is lost/damaged/stolen etc. and then you don't get a new one, I can't see anything saying you have to tell them that you simply don't have a passport anymore. But the minute you get a new one, you have to tell them, even if you're not going anywhere. Both the Passport office and DVLA have a marker on their system which alerts the PPU if there is any change - this was originally introduced to act as a deterrent after the PPUs discovered people changing their name, getting new documents and not notifying. As it's a legal requirement to notify within 3 days of any change to passport (or driving licence if no passport and DL used as identity document) this marker should be irrelevant to anyone (hopefully all on this forum) looking to play by the rules. Exactly, but if you're on the register, there's no point getting a new passport unless you need one. Once you're off the register, you can get a new passport and not have to notify anyone. Any flags or notices against your old passport number wouldn't apply any more. Just thought I'd revive this thread, as there is now some clearer information online here. The UK government is quite proud of its record in using the Schengen Information System, and says that from April 2016 to March 2017, UK alerts resulted in 13,100 hits across the EU. Meanwhile, a blog here says that the UK has always led the way on EU criminal justice policy, so things are unlikely to get any easier after Brexit.
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If you are to punish a man retributively you must injure him. If you are to reform him you must improve him. And men are not improved by injuries. (George Bernard Shaw)
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